Masks in public/at the park

[Jeevan | 8,909]

11 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

For sure, Mom and kid definitely should have wore a mask, no dispute there :).  Beyond that, while some people are saying this Mom deserved the lashing (pretty surprised at some of the responses so far), I will flip the script and say sometimes people need to know when they are acting entitled.

Fair, but honestly, even tho i dont know OP, I kind of doubt it was entitlement there, granted, we can agree maybe he should have handled it diff. even tho. I think it would have ended in just her being a *****.......IDK, anyways, good chat, maybe next time you tell her you are calling the cops because she isnt wearing a mask @JamesRobot 

[Californication | 1,477]

I think whether wearing a mask is legal is irrelevant in this type of situation. Robot didn't break any laws by giving her the bird, we are talking about whether that is right/wrong - this is about social morays. 

The mother didn't have enough sense to see that a group of people wearing masks were using the park and allowed her son to go around them. She then got offended that they did not want the kid to be around them because he did not have a mask. 

Robot and family were there first they have dibs. That is the way public spaces work. 

If the kid was running around without a mask and then Robot and  family showed up and asked the kid to kick rocks because he didn't have a mask that would be a dif. story.

Also, if that mother lets her kid run up to a group of people without a masks where else has she taken her kid with no mask. There is a pandemic going on, people are dying by the hundreds of thousands.

 

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

2 hours ago, drxandy said:

Yeah throwing nurse around is just a power play, an ignorant one but hey. A proper nurse would already be masked up as well as her kid. 

^^^That.

As far as the situation, at its core you were correct but you definitely could have handled it better.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

8 minutes ago, Californication said:

Robot and family were there first they have dibs. That is the way public spaces work.

 

Not at all true.  The public equipment is intended to be shared.

[BriGuy82 | 762]

You'll always be the bad guy arguing with a woman in public. Even if you're in the right. Better off just removing yourself from the situation. When I was younger, I was in numerous situations where a woman accused me of saying something to them, or offending them some how. It took me a few times to learn to just walk away. 

[Makar | 1,946]

Probably could’ve done without the double bird but otherwise justified. Absolutely nothing wrong with protecting your family. 

[Californication | 1,477]

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

Not at all true.  The public equipment is intended to be shared.

Just because you share something doesn't mean it has to be used by both parties at the same time. If you go to the Boys and Girls Club and want to play pool, you don't walk up to the table in the middle of the game and say its my turn. You get in line and when it's your turn you play. 

Social norms are modified because of the pandemic. I can't tell you how many time I've walked in the street to avoid other people walking from the other direction. Yes, legally I have a right to use the side walk, I am also a young man in my prime so I am going to get out of the way of anyone who also happens to be using the sidewalk.

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Californication

[Boosted52405 | 178]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

Just because you share something doesn't mean it has to be used by both parties at the same time. If you go to the Boys and Girls Club and want to play pool, you don't walk up to the table in the middle of the game and say its my turn. You get in line and when it's your turn you play. 

Social norms are modified because of the pandemic. I can't tell you how many time I've walked in the street to avoid other people walking from the other direction. Yes, legally I have a right to use the side walk, I am also a young man in my prime so I am going to get out of the way of anyone who also happens to be using the sidewalk.

Yes, but we're talking about a public park here, that's not apples to your oranges.  Based on your example, it would be more similar to sharing a single swing - yes, of course it's expected to take turns.  However, the open swing next to it is fair game, same as if there was an open pool table next to the one spoken for.

Public parks are in place to provide shared park equipment for families concurrently, and in a civil manner.  This matter is a civil issue, not a first-come-first-serve issue.

[Californication | 1,477]

11 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

Yes, but we're talking about a public park here, that's not apples to your oranges.  Based on your example, it would be more similar to sharing a single swing - yes, of course it's expected to take turns.  However, the open swing next to it is fair game, same as if there was an open pool table next to the one spoken for.

Public parks are in place to provide shared park equipment for families concurrently, and in a civil manner.  This matter is a civil issue, not a first-come-first-serve issue.

There is nothing civil about a potentially infected child running up to play with/near you and your family who are using a public space. 

You are talking like there isn't a pandemic going on and the ways we use public spaces has not been modified. 

The reason they had to close down places like beaches, is because people are too stupid to understand that there is a pandemic and modify their behavior. This woman is the type of dumb person that they needed to shut the beaches for. 

There is a pandemic, we all need to make sacrifices. And if Jimmy is too young to wear a mask than he needs to wait his turn. 

[Boosted52405 | 178]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

There is nothing civil about a potentially infected child running up to play with/near you and your family who are using a public space. 

You are talking like there isn't a pandemic going on and the ways we use public spaces has not been modified. 

The reason they had to close down places like beaches, is because people are too stupid to understand that there is a pandemic and modify their behavior. This woman is the type of dumb person that they needed to shut the beaches for. 

There is a pandemic, we all need to make sacrifices. And if Jimmy is too young to wear a mask than he needs to wait his turn. 

I'm absolutely considering the pandemic, have you read any of my responses at all? 

It's actually super duper simple - if you are willing to take your child to a public park (or any public place really), it's up to YOU to protect your kid and your family.  The only lawful control you have in this situation is to grab your kid and get out of that situation - period. 

The law says the kid can play in that park without a mask, so unfortunately the OP has to deal with that, or try and civilly work it out with the other parents.  He has absolutely no right at all to tell the kid he can't play on that equipment, that is my clear point.

You're right, we all have to make sacrifices due to the pandemic.  However, that doesn't equate to heightened entitlement at a public park.  We can only control our own actions, we have no right to demand something from others that is outside of their lawful right.  While I fully agree that kid should have been masked, that Mom had every right to let her kid run around that playground.

[Californication | 1,477]

9 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

I'm absolutely considering the pandemic, have you read any of my responses at all? 

It's actually super duper simple - if you are willing to take your child to a public park (or any public place really), it's up to YOU to protect your kid and your family.  The only lawful control you have in this situation is to grab your kid and get out of that situation - period. 

The law says the kid can play in that park without a mask, so unfortunately the OP has to deal with that, or try and civilly work it out with the other parents.  He has absolutely no right at all to tell the kid he can't play on that equipment, that is my clear point.

You're right, we all have to make sacrifices due to the pandemic.  However, that doesn't equate to heightened entitlement at a public park.  We can only control our own actions, we have no right to demand something from others that is outside of their lawful right.  While I fully agree that kid should have been masked, that Mom had every right to let her kid run around that playground.

You are going back to a legal argument and not considering social morays during a pandemic. 

Robot has the legal right to flip the woman off. By your logic OP was not legally allowed to tell the kid he couldn't play near them, but he was legally allowed to flip the woman off, and you have no reason to be upset or surprised at him except for asking a kid not to play near him.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Californication

[Daniel_Doyce | 470]

People in general are terrible at relative risk analysis.

According to a Forbes article from October, the 0-19 age cohort has a risk of death from COVID of 30 micromorts. A 1% chance of death is 10,000 micromorts.. The 0-5 cohort by itself is even lower than 30 micromorts.

So your kid is much more likely to suffer a traumatic injury at the playground or (according to the CDC) just about as likely to die in a car fatality, assuming you drive ~7500 miles a year.

There is no upside to public policy makers being rational about relative risk or giving rational advice about COVID, however. Therefore we end up with screaming Karens at the park.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

4 minutes ago, Californication said:

You are going back to a legal argument and not considering social morays during a pandemic. 

Robot has the legal right to flip the woman off. By your logic OP was not legally allowed to tell the kid he couldn't play near them, but he was legally allowed to flip the woman off, and you have no reason to be upset or surprised at him except for asking a kid not to play near him.

I guess I'm confused what point you're trying to make.  The OP asked about his actions - I feel strongly he was out of line, with both his expectations and his actions.  This crosses both legal and social perspectives, however in a civil dispute of this nature it comes down to the rights of the parties involved.  I laid out what rights the parties had, I never said it was illegal that he flipped her off, but for doing that not only in front of his kid, but a stranger's innocent kid - he should be ashamed.

[Californication | 1,477]

1 minute ago, Boosted52405 said:

I guess I'm confused what point you're trying to make.  The OP asked about his actions - I feel strongly he was out of line, with both his expectations and his actions.  This crosses both legal and social perspectives, however in a civil dispute of this nature it comes down to the rights of the parties involved.  I laid out what rights the parties had, I never said it was illegal that he flipped her off, but for doing that not only in front of his kid, but a stranger's innocent kid - he should be ashamed.

Legal arguments are used for deciding what is legal/illegal.

That is completly seperate from social norms or social morays, that is what we as a society agree is okay or proper in society. 

For example: It is not illegal for you to have sex with your cousin, but modern society agrees that that is not okay. Would you be wrong if you had sex with your cousin? Legally, no you are good, but you might not want to tell your friends about it.

Now OP is asking if he was wrong in the way he treated someone. He is asking if he violated social norms. And my answer from the beginning has been that the woman also violated social norms by allowing her kid, to be around other people without a mask during a pandemic. OP and his party clearly showed that masks were important to them by wearing them in public and the woman and child were disrespectful by violating OP's space. 

So now that we can agree that the woman and child violated social norms the question is whether OP's response was justifiable. 

 

[Boosted52405 | 178]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

Legal arguments are used for deciding what is legal/illegal.

That is completly seperate from social norms or social morays, that is what we as a society agree is okay or proper in society. 

For example: It is not illegal for you to have sex with your cousin, but modern society agrees that that is not okay. Would you be wrong if you had sex with your cousin? Legally, no you are good, but you might not want to tell your friends about it.

Now OP is asking if he was wrong in the way he treated someone. He is asking if he violated social norms. And my answer from the beginning has been that the woman also violated social norms by allowing her kid, to be around other people without a mask during a pandemic. OP and his party clearly showed that masks were important to them by wearing them in public and the woman and child were disrespectful by violating OP's space. 

So now that we can agree that the woman and child violated social norms the question is whether OP's response was justifiable. 

 

I was just drafting a response to ask what social aspect/indifference you are referring to, nice timing.  This response is great and I fully understand and agree with what you have laid out above. 

I definitely agree that the Mom was in the wrong from a social perspective, and I hope that has been expressed in my various responses.  The tricky part of this situation is that she is also fully lawful to do what she did (except that she was expected to be masked). That is where, unfortunately, lawfulness trumps social norms and why I feel the OP had no right at all to cause a scene as presented.

We can expect an awful lot out of strangers, but in doing so, I've learned as I age that we're only setting ourselves up for disappointment.  Allow the ones that respect social norms be the bonus to your daily navigation through life.

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

Whew.  There's a lot to unpack here.  First, so I am clear, the incident started off polite enough.  The kid didn't just roll up and hop on the swings next to us, he specifically came up to me (3 feet) with a yearning to play with somebody.  After he said he had no mask, I told him he can't play with us.  Like I said, it's a big park, let his mom play with him.  Even in non-COVID times, if I tell a kid (or anyone) to scram, he should respect that and beat it.  And his mom should know damn well not to poke a bear who wants to be left alone.  If I had a less pleasant demeanor, would she have felt comfortable striking up an argument?  I doubt it. 

Now, I aired my dirty laundry and asked for everyone's opinion so I appreciate all of your responses so far.  I even respect the sole member that had the balls to tell me that I'm the asshole here.  Looking at you @Quest4Nes.    But I've got a couple arguments to make.

 

3 hours ago, Quest4Nes said:

1. No offense, but this display is pretty embarrassing. You keep calling her karen, but it really seems like you were the embodiment of a karen in that situation. Shes reacting to your karenness

2. Let the kids play man.  If you are this concerned and this is so scary then why did you even take them?

1.  None taken.  Is it embarrassing?  Probably to some; I don't give a shit.  I'm not the Karen here.  There shouldn't have been an argument in the first place.  I let mom know that her kid can't play with us without a mask.  I only engaged after Karen couldn't leave well enough alone and kept running her mouth.

2.  Fine, the kids can play if they respect each other.  No mask?  Get the fuck away from me.  So I'm just supposed to live in fear and remain a hermit while the mouth breathers run rampant with no concern for responsibility or consequences?  I don't operate that way.  My advice to her or anyone is, don't start none, won't be none.

-----------------------

 

2 hours ago, Boosted52405 said:

This one is tricky, and as I have a 3yo little duder I can totally relate.  However, it's a public place and if there is not a lawful order for her kid to wear a mask, then it's simply a civil issue between you and the Mom (really, just you).  I think you crossed the line considerably, to be honest.

1. Taking your kiddo to a public park is 1000% opening up the door for this situation, and honestly, you have no right telling a kid to stay off some public equipment just because you want them to wear a mask around your kid.  You don't own the park, and that is really how you behaved.  Furthermore, to publicly argue (and even flip off?!?!) the Mother in front of both of your kids - shows some serious immaturity.

2. If I would have been the Mom, I would have been livid at this behavior in front of my kid.

3. While I 1000% agree the kid should have wore a mask simply out of public respect, I fully assume you created a really shitty day for that Mom.  Parenting is hella tough as you probably know fully well, that is probably the last thing she needed to encounter.

4. You could/should have asked her if he had a mask, and if not, set the example to the other parent by taking your kid and walking away - perhaps explaining to your duder/dudess that you want to keep them safe and it's super important to wear a mask around people right now (my 3yo would fully understand that).

Sure, I am ranting a little here, but am a bit surprised at this story (especially the middle finger part).  Up until winter hit, I would only take my kiddo to empty parks and he knew going in that if other people show up, we will probably go find another park.

It's clear from your poll and public posting that you question your actions, I'm just being totally honest and can relate very closely being a single parent.

I can hear all of that, Boosted. And while I feel justified to a degree, I still wish I could have been a little less self-righteous.  I go to that specific park because there is plenty of room and I can give the anti-maskers a wide berth and still enjoy the space.  When this all went down, we were the only people at the park.  It is a civil issue and I have no qualms letting people know they're out of line.

1.  As I mentioned at the top of this post.  The kid didn't roll up and hop on the swings.  Of course, I don't own the park.  But where does my right for personal space begin and end?  Social mores dictate 6 feet in today's current climate.  I have every legal/social right to tell the kid to take a hike.  

2.  She doesn't know me from Adam.  She elicited that response.  Was it appropriate?  Of course not.  But neither is starting an argument with a stranger who politely asked to be left alone.  Once she crossed the line, appropriateness is out the window.  I may be teaching my kids socially unacceptable ways to respond in public, but she is teaching her kid a far more dangerous game that it's ok to confront people who expressly want nothing to do with you.  Stranger danger should have been her first lesson to her kid.

3.  I do feel bad about it.  I'm never out to ruin anyone's day.  Like I said, I didn't want the argument in the first place but I am also not about to kowtow to someone who can't respect others and just stop what I am doing.

4.  I did ask the kid if he had a mask.  She was offended that I didn't want him near me without one.  I got nothing against the kid.  She made it personal on her end.

Thanks for your perspective and honesty, Boost.  One more question for you, at what point should personal space be respected 

----------------------

 

2 hours ago, The Strangest said:

Also, my lungs are hurting as I type this. Because someone I live with was careless and didn’t take proper COVID precautions. I didn’t care about anti-maskers feelings before, and I certainly care about them ever less now. Tell them all off.

Godspeed, Strangest.  Get well soon.

------------------------

 

2 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

…you definitely could have handled it better.

Agreed.

-------------------------

 

1 hour ago, BriGuy82 said:

You'll always be the bad guy arguing with a woman in public. Even if you're in the right. Better off just removing yourself from the situation. When I was younger, I was in numerous situations where a woman accused me of saying something to them, or offending them some how. It took me a few times to learn to just walk away. 

I hear you but I can't just lay down or be run off just because someone else offended.  There have been times at the same park where we show up and there are just too many families without masks.  I will just leave in those instances.  In this case we were there first and our personal space was being encroached. 

Please leave us alone.  No?  Fuck off then.

---------------------------

 

27 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

The only lawful control you have in this situation is to grab your kid and get out of that situation - period. 

I have every legal right to ask someone who is bothering me to leave me alone.  Sure the kid was sad, but he did leave us alone.  Sorry kid, bring a mask next time.  

Mom also has every legal right to be offended.  And start an argument.  I probably could have just ignored her and maybe she would have went away.  That would have been the high road in my opinion.

 

11 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

...he should be ashamed.

Meh.  While I wish I could have been a more mature about the whole thing, I am not ashamed.  What should one expect when you start shouting across a public space at someone?  Civil dissertation on the pros and cons wearing masks in public during a global pandemic?  Anyway, its not my hang-up.  We all act contrary to our best character at sometime or another.  I'm man enough to admit I came up short and I apologized to both of my kids individually.  Ain't no shame in that.

If I should feel shame, so should the other parent for instigating the situation.  If she's a good mom (I will give her the benefit of the doubt) she will have apologized to her kid for her own hand in this too.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

@JamesRobot I want to denote everything with the understanding that I totally agree with your concern and desire, but your expectations are wildly off-base.  At what point should personal space be respected, you ask?  The answer is when it truly is your personal space, a public park is absolutely not that, at all.  Again, I worry you're acting entitled about a public place, especially when no laws were being broken.  After all this commentary and discussion, you're still acting like a public park was your personal property, simply because you arrived first.  Social norms do not override lawfulness.

I totally agree that the kid should have been masked, however you have no entitlement or control over the use of public park equipment.  To expect otherwise is acting falsely entitled.

What would you have done if the Mom told you to piss off and go find another park?

[Quest4Nes | 376]

15 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

@JamesRobot I want to denote everything with the understanding that I totally agree with your concern and desire, but your expectations are wildly off-base.  At what point should personal space be respected, you ask?  The answer is when it truly is your personal space, a public park is absolutely not that, at all.  Again, I worry you're acting entitled about a public place, especially when no laws were being broken.  After all this commentary and discussion, you're still acting like a public park was your personal property, simply because you arrived first.  Social norms do not override lawfulness.

I totally agree that the kid should have been masked, however you have no entitlement or control over the use of public park equipment.  To expect otherwise is acting falsely entitled.

What would you have done if the Mom told you to piss off and go find another park?

While I disagree with the kid needing to be masked and masking in general, this right here otherwise is a very rational viewpoint and 100 percent correct. 

If someone wants to take precaution that makes them feel better, absolutely fine, but if its a public space I feel james is being selfish dictating to others to do things to make him feel better. My thing with the masks here in this instance is kind of absurd. Those kids are touching everything. They arent not touching there face. They are kids. The cross contamination is literally on all those public surfaces. That mask isnt going to do anything. Kids are gross. Especially young ones. 

 

To answer james, yes if you think the mouth breathers are ruining everything for you, then so be it they are going to. They are taking the risk you arent willing to. You aren't entitled for the world to be perfect and everything set up for you the way you want it. Two sides of selfishness. You feel I would be selfish by contaminating everything. I would think your selfish for trying to control everyone around you. That argument goes both ways. To everyone, if you are nervous about the world around you, you have every right to stay home.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Quest4Nes

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

9 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

@JamesRobot I want to denote everything with the understanding that I totally agree with your concern and desire, but your expectations are wildly off-base.  At what point should personal space be respected, you ask?  The answer is when it truly is your personal space, a public park is absolutely not that, at all.  Again, I worry you're acting entitled about a public place, especially when no laws were being broken.  After all this commentary and discussion, you're still acting like a public park was your personal property, simply because you arrived first.  Social norms do not override lawfulness.

I totally agree that the kid should have been masked, however you have no entitlement or control over the use of public park equipment.  To expect otherwise is acting falsely entitled.

What would you have done if the Mom told you to piss off and go find another park?

So legally, up until the point of unwanted physical contact, there is no issue.  Fine.  Then there is also no issue with me telling the kid to take a hike.  I didn't tell him that he couldn't use the park equipment, I told him he couldn't play with my kids.  Tough luck little dude.

COVID aside, what if I just don't like the kid and tell him to get lost?  Also not illegal and also not an issue of entitlement.  

Had she told me to piss off? I don't really know in the heat of the moment.  Probably would have said something else offensive honestly. 

[Boosted52405 | 178]

3 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

So legally, up until the point of unwanted physical contact, there is no issue.  Fine.  Then there is also no issue with me telling the kid to take a hike.  I didn't tell him that he couldn't use the park equipment, I told him he couldn't play with my kids.  Tough luck little dude.

COVID aside, what if I just don't like the kid and tell him to get lost?  Also not illegal and also not an issue of entitlement.  

Had she told me to piss off? I don't really know in the heat of the moment.  Probably would have said something else offensive honestly. 

Well literally all of that is for your personal preference, absolutely nothing that the mom or kid has to listen or act upon.  Don't like it?  Leave.  Tough luck dude.

[Richardhead | 2,813]

Now probably isn’t a good time to say that James and I hang out maskless. We don’t share joints or weed pipes though.

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

 

19 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

While I disagree with the kid needing to be masked and masking in general, this right here otherwise is a very rational viewpoint and 100 percent correct. 

If someone wants to take precaution that makes them feel better, absolutely fine, but if its a public space I feel james is being selfish dictating to others to do things to make him feel better. My thing with the masks here in this instance is kind of absurd. Those kids are touching everything. They arent not touching there face. They are kids. The cross contamination is literally on all those public surfaces. That mask isnt going to do anything. Kids are gross. Especially young ones. 

 

To answer james, yes if you think the mouth breathers are ruining everything for you, then so be it they are going to. They are taking the risk you arent willing to. You aren't entitled for the world to be perfect and everything set up for you the way you want it. Two sides of selfishness. You feel I would be selfish by contaminating everything. I would think your selfish for trying to control everyone around you. That argument goes both ways. To everyone, if you are nervous about the world around you, you have every right to stay home.

For sure kids are gross.  I do what I can to mitigate risk but also not live in fear.  Masks in public (by order of law), hand sanitize after play, wash hands when we get home.  

Let's put COVID and mask politics aside. You're telling me that you would bite your tongue and let anyone stand within an inch of you without actual physical contact and let them ruin your day.  You would just take shit, stand down, and walk away?  You wouldn't let them know that what they are doing is not ok?  

[Richardhead | 2,813]

1 minute ago, JamesRobot said:

 

For sure kids are gross.  I do what I can to mitigate risk but also not live in fear.  Masks in public (by order of law), hand sanitize after play, wash hands when we get home.  

Let's put COVID and mask politics aside. You're telling me that you would bite your tongue and let anyone stand within an inch of you without actual physical contact and let them ruin your day.  You would just take shit, stand down, and walk away?  You wouldn't let them know that what they are doing is not ok?  

I believe he would walk away...

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

10 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

Well literally all of that is for your personal preference, absolutely nothing that the mom or kid has to listen or act upon.  Don't like it?  Leave.  Tough luck dude.

What would you do?  A known bad influence is harassing your kid in a public space but no physical contact so everything is nice and legal.

Do you just tolerate it and run away?  Or are you going to stick up for your kid and tell the bad influence to kick rocks.

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

I think I discovered the discrepancy here that may help the confusion. You keep saying it's your right to tell someone to take a hike but it isn't your right at all. If you want to be left alone, you have the option to do that in your own home but if you travel out into society, you're at the mercy of anyone else that also wants to be in society (within rules). If  you're occupying part of a public playground, any other person has their right to occupy that same space (within rules) and you can't say anything about it. That's how it is to live within society, you have every right to go live in the woods away from everyone if you want to.

If I'm out for a jog, enjoying the sunshine and someone jogs along side me smoking a cigarette, I have zero right to tell him to get away from me or find another jogging route. I need to make my own decision to leave that area and go enjoy a different area if I don't like that area's occupants. I absolutely cannot ask them to leave.

Do I have this wrong? Any time I go out in society (which isn't often), I know I'm going to encounter people that are rude, obnoxious and invading my space. Now that there is a pandemic, I choose not to go outside because I know they will not stop invading my space and I cannot tell them to take a different aisle in the grocery store so I just choose not to go. That's my only option here. Your only option is to go find another playground or call the police if someone is breaking the law.