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Sorry for another Grading Question: For WATA CIB Grades, is a 10.0 even possible?


RH

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Grading exceptional quality, CIB games seems like a bit of a catch-22.  If you took an exceptional sealed game, opened it and sent it to WATA for grading, there's a good chance that all of the component parts could be 10.0 quality.  However, when WATA goes to grade everything, they have to open the box. This might not affect clamshell games, but when it comes to cardboard, this means that WATA has to damage the box by adding a crease to the folded side of the flap. I assume taking out the box content shouldn't be a problem, but I am assuming that opening the game, even once, will leave a noticeable change to the flap crease and will, thus, ding the grade.

So, has there been any real example of a 10.0 graded CIB game, especially that came in cardboard?  Can there even be a 10.0?  My guess is no, but I'm no expert on the matter. I am curious about it, though.  What is likely the highest grade a cardboard boxed game can get CIB?

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1 hour ago, Gloves said:

10 exists on their scale, and they have photo references for it, so presumably it is possible.

https://www.watagames.com/what-we-do/wata-scale

image.png

Even though I have seen that, I still don't feel like it answers the question.  A 10.0 box is fresh out of a case. Regardless, if you open a box, you're going to damage the box in a way that doesn't happen from normal factory processes.

I see they have a 10.0 example and, I assume they certainly opened that box to get the 10.0 cart and the 10.0 manual, but was this grade before, or after they opened it for the photo?  Did they fudge the grade for the photos because the front face was a 10.0, but they weren't showing the top side with the creased flap?

Again, this is a catch-22.  IMHO, a 10.0 CIB box shouldn't be possible.  A box is damaged when it's opened.  Period. If they don't grade that way, that's fine, but IMHO any damage from use should mark the grade, at least by the most insignificant, recorded value.

BUT with that said, there's nothing saying you can't have a 10.0 cart, 10.0 manual, 10.0 contents and a 9.8 box, rounded-up to a total score of 10.0.  That would make sense to me.  The box, however, shouldn't be a 10.0 when it's opened.

Edited by RH
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10 minutes ago, RH said:

Even though I have seen that, I still don't feel like it answers the question.  A 10.0 box is fresh out of a case. Regardless, if you open a box, you're going to damage the box in a way that doesn't happen from normal factory processes.

I see they have a 10.0 example and, I assume they certainly opened that box to get the 10.0 cart and the 10.0 manual, but was this grade before, or after they opened it for the photo?  Did they fudge the grade for the photos because the front face was a 10.0, but they weren't showing the top side with the creased flap.

Again, this is a catch-22.  IMHO, a 10.0 CIB shouldn't be possible.  A box is damaged when it's opened.  Period. If they don't grade that way, that's fine, but IMHO any damage from use should mark the grade, at least by the most insignificant, recorded value.

BUT, with that said, there's nothing saying you can't have a 10.0 cart, 10.0 manual, 10.0 contents and a 9.8 box, rounded-up to a total score of 10.0.  That would make sense to me.  The box, however, shouldn't be a 10.0 when it's opened.

I tend to agree that it would be essentially impossible to have a perfect 10 CIB. I wonder if they just used those pics as an example or if they have legitimately graded boxes as a 10 before.

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A 10 CIB would likely only happen under very specific circumstances.  @RH - your analogy would be spot on.  Essentially the box would have to be near perfect, and unopened essentially.  It would need to be a 9.8 box, 10 manual, 10 cart to get the 10 CIB.  I can only see this situation happening if someone had a torn seal of a near perfect game and just decided to make it a cib .... it is almost impossible to have a 10.0 manual without it being out of a sealed game / first opening .... 

 

I believe there are around 3 or 4 10.0 grades from WATA (all sealed is my understanding), and around 8-10 VGA 100s.  So it can happen, but it takes the best of the best to get there.  

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Administrator · Posted

The question was simply "is it possible" and the answer is demonstrably "yes".

Incredibly rare is not impossible. 

I wonder if you sent them a 10/10 unopened CIB and said "do not open if doing so will impact the grade as this has never been opened", they'd presume that the contents are in fact 10 as well, or say "sorry but that goes against our process". 

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2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

The question was simply "is it possible" and the answer is demonstrably "yes".

Incredibly rare is not impossible. 

Well, the intention isn't "can something be so perfect, that it's a 10?"  My real question is that based off of their proper grading standards, is it even possible for a 10.0 CIB to exist since opening a box to inspect it will degrade it.

Can an object exist that could be scored as 10.0? Absolutely.  But can it be scored and entombed as such? I am assuming no since opening a box damages it and, ergo, a 10.0 can't exist. That's the question I'm trying to answer.

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Administrator · Posted

I don't wanna be THAT guy but... have you considered reaching out to Wata to ask? I don't know that anyone here has any actual idea what they'd do if presented with a 10/10 CIB. PRESUMABLY in order to get that you'd basically need a 10/10 sealed game, send it to them, and be like "yo, unseal this then slab it" for them to be confident in them not opening it to check the insides.

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@Gloves That's a fair point.  I know the WATA crowd has had their share of haters around here, so they may not come along anymore, but I assumed a couple of them dropped in from time to time, and some of the people here knew them.

I don't use twitter at all, or FB or Instagram that matter, but I'll try to send them an email to see what they say.

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I haven't even seen a 10.0 component.  Don't think it is possible as a manufacturing flaw could still be dinged.  Just like every time you open a pack of cards you don't get all PSA 10 cards due to offcenter, corner dings in assembly, etc.  

I have a 9.8 CIB with all 9.8 internals and that game was as mint as it could possibly be. 

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Editorials Team · Posted

Is it really, actually impossible to open a box without damaging it? Sure, if I'm jamming my thumb into it to scoop the flap out, then yeah, that damages it. Is there not some set of tools that can be carefully used to get a flap pulled up without creasing anything in the process?

Makes me want to pick up some cheap, sealed shovelware to try it out.

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1 hour ago, Splain said:

Is it really, actually impossible to open a box without damaging it? Sure, if I'm jamming my thumb into it to scoop the flap out, then yeah, that damages it. Is there not some set of tools that can be carefully used to get a flap pulled up without creasing anything in the process?

Makes me want to pick up some cheap, sealed shovelware to try it out.

This is a good point, for cardboard games. Saying an open box is a 10, as in its the same condition as a completely unopened copy of the same game, wouldn't make sense. It would have to be a clamshell or jewelcase I would think. 

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Today I just happened to get a GBA box and manual in and found out it was new old stock. I guess there is a scenario that may make it technically possible for a CIB game to be a 10 if the box was never opened, right? I realize this is getting into some really specific scenarios, but it may be something that gives a 10 box a theoretical possibility, even if it’s extremely unlikely still.

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12 hours ago, Splain said:

Is it really, actually impossible to open a box without damaging it? Sure, if I'm jamming my thumb into it to scoop the flap out, then yeah, that damages it. Is there not some set of tools that can be carefully used to get a flap pulled up without creasing anything in the process?

Makes me want to pick up some cheap, sealed shovelware to try it out.

It does damage it, sort of.  When they make these boxes and send them to assembly, they first put pressed creases where the box needs to bend to make it's form and shape.  The then make two folds and then glue the one side that needs to be glued together.

This make a flat paper item that's easy to ship to the assembly facility from the printers.  In final assembly, the boxes are opened, and the flaps are tucked in.  The thing is, on the top-flap, when you bend at the crease for the first time, and only the first time, you get a nice, smooth round look.  This is one way you can verify if a game is sealed.  Look at the crease on the top flap and determine if it's got a nice, round smooth look.  However, as soon as you open the box, even once, it compresses the hinge and gives it a ridge.  If you see the ridge, the box has been open.

And going back to this discussion, I am claiming that that ridge that appears after the first-open is damage.  And since it is damage, it should count against the box score.  Ergo, a 9.8 should be theoretical top score of a CIB item because even if you remove the shrinkwrap before shipping to WATA, as I've said before, they will open up the item and create ridge by opening the game for the first time. WATA might be the ones damaging the cardboard, but it is damage none-the-less.

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20 hours ago, RH said:

Well, the intention isn't "can something be so perfect, that it's a 10?"  My real question is that based off of their proper grading standards, is it even possible for a 10.0 CIB to exist since opening a box to inspect it will degrade it.

Can an object exist that could be scored as 10.0? Absolutely.  But can it be scored and entombed as such? I am assuming no since opening a box damages it and, ergo, a 10.0 can't exist. That's the question I'm trying to answer.

I think grading CIB by its nature, is probably near impossible to get a perfect 10. 

You’re focusing on the very minimal wear on boxes once it has been opened for inspection. The more likely wear in my opinion is the cart or manual on the inside. Friction rubs of the insides are likely to cause very small wear/indents to manuals or cart labels. So a perfect 10 would be extremely rare, even before the grading process have occurred.

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Deniz has told me 10 CIB isn't possible because by the very nature of opening the box, you crease the hinge and it's a 9.8. The pictures on their site are just examples for reference, not actual grades.

Although if you had a 10 cart, a 10 manual, and a 9.8 box, wouldn't that be a 9.9 rounded up to 10? Or a non-cardboard box game wouldn't have the hinge issue, but it would be basically impossible to find a 10 manual rattling around a DVD case. So maybe in theory it is possible, just not in reality.

Edited by DefaultGen
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From Wata after I emailed them:

Quote

Richard,
We can, in the case of a game that's never been opened before but was submitted as C.I.B., determine that it has never been opened before & then choose not to open it & grade it as "Sealed No Seal", or something that has no damage & has never been opened but happens to have no factory seal. It would not be treated as C.I.B., you are correct that C.I.B. are always opened & cannot be a 10.0.
-Megan

All the best,  The Wata Team.

So, it looks like you could almost call it a third type of grading-- Sealed, CIB and "Sealed, No Seal" where I guess they'd simply grade the outer box only.  Good to know.  I guess this makes sense.

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Well, how about these two scenarios.

#1: You buy two games from a case, open one and take out the contents, unseal the other but keep it closed.

There you have a possible set of 10s, cart, manual, and box. I guess people might say, "But there is a cartridge and manual inside the box..." . But do we even know that with 100% certainty, for sure, without actually opening it? Sure there's the weight difference, but maybe at the factory someone stuck a brick in or something. Unless actually confirmed by being x-rayed or something, we wouldn't know what's in there.

#2: Some companies had tons of stock left of unfolded boxes, etc. So buy one of those of 10 status, send it in with a 10 cart and manual from a sealed game.

With this people might cry foul over the obvious frankensteining, but I'm sure Wata has already graded tons of frankensteined items, as a regular set (not as mismatched) , if the items are truly identical. Voila, instant 10 in all three categories 

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7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

#2: Some companies had tons of stock left of unfolded boxes, etc. So buy one of those of 10 status, send it in with a 10 cart and manual from a sealed game.

I could see this being the only real problem but rather unlikely.  First, for any common to uncommon game, there's a chance that an unopened box might go for more, or close to, the value of a CIB copy of any given game. Ergo, the cost might not make it worth it.

However, if someone found unopened boxes of Stadium Events, Little Samson, Dino Peak, etc. then they could definitely grab a copy of Dragon Quest, and any random NES manual in excellent shape, all of the respective Nintendo inserts and throw them in the box and ask that it be graded as "Sealed, No Seal".  Wata would inspect the box, see it'd never been opened and then assume it was all properly assembled.

But this isn't very likely, or plausible.  I don't know how many unopened boxes come up for sale, but I'm guessing the chances of finding a few of these boxes for a top shelf title isn't very likely.

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  • 3 years later...

It indeed DOES NOT exists to anybody who doesnt work there. Ive seen self graded 10s, but Ive been trying to get a 10 grade for years, They WILL NOT give you a 10, if youre an outsider. It just will not happen and to prove it, I got 2 people in Nevada who work in the video game industry. After my buddy got done making nba 2k22, he got one FRESH OFF THE PRESS. Got it sealed, and came to my house in IL so we could try it out cause he said it was PRESTINE and he watched it go down. So we packaged that thing like a baby (so it wouldnt get damaged during transit), im talking about so much padding you coudve thrown a fucking grenade at it. Seal was perfectly straight up and down across the middle of where you put your fingers to open the case, bottom folds looked IMPECCIBLE! STILL 9.9 A++ SMH.... Same thing happened after they got done with Crash 4, my other bud told me he got one of the very first production "completes"(cartridge,case,insert,shrinkwrap.) Perfect condition, but 9.9 A++. 

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