Tabonga | 2,317 Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, avatar! said: Does also make me wonder, how "good" was life in ancient Rome? Greece? Egypt? Was it "terrible" or "hard" or...? I know things depended on what class you were in etc. but I wonder if it was perhaps better than the 1700s and 1800s? I'm sure people have written about this, just a matter of finding the right book(s)! I suspect it pretty much sucked all along throughout history for most people - and how long one survived depended on the luck of the draw (the odds were better for males since so many women (up until recently) died in childbirth (which was one of the main reasons men might have several wives over the course of a lifetime.)) https://www.verywellhealth.com/longevity-throughout-history-2224054 Edited August 19, 2021 by Tabonga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,520 Editorials Team · Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 2 hours ago, SailorScoutMandy said: Finally finishing up this trilogy, I'm sorry cycle. I've owned those for almost 30 years and still haven't read them. Not sure why because I read most of the other SW stuff from that era. Some day... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorScoutMandy | 782 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said: I've owned those for almost 30 years and still haven't read them. Not sure why because I read most of the other SW stuff from that era. Some day... They are really good. I was impressed with them to be honest as I wasn't sure what to expect going into them. Easy weekend reads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docile tapeworm | 4,198 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 i read a billboard the other day...think it was chik fil a... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PII | 1,884 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendragonx | 117 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 23 hours ago, SailorScoutMandy said: Finally finishing up this trilogy, I'm sorry cycle. Hah nice! Good stuff.. I've read a ton of stuff by Timothy Zahn (and even met him down at DragonCon some years ago) .. I think that cycle was the first time I read his work. If you like his style, I highly recommend the sci-fi novel The Icarus Hunt ,... It's a great mix of mystery and sci-fi awesomeness 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendragonx | 117 Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 I'm currently half-way thru the late Terry Goodkind's "The Third Kingdom" .. I believe there's 2 more books after this up on my shelf that I'll get to after I finish it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,520 Editorials Team · Posted August 21, 2021 Author Share Posted August 21, 2021 Did he just pass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estil | 1,264 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 You know my wife had (I still have) a whole collection of several Star Trek books, mostly TOS and TNG. I had tried to get her to maybe try to collect all the hardcover TNG books (that's her favorite Star Trek by far and my first ever major gift for her was the Star Trek TNG DVD set...the original big/silver box one) so she too can have a "collection" sort of hobby like I do for cards/games/books. Sadly she didn't get the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammerfestus | 3,836 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 Been into relearning to play bass. It’s been a lot of years. Changed strings for the first time in like 15 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar! | 1,810 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 On 8/19/2021 at 6:48 PM, Tabonga said: I suspect it pretty much sucked all along throughout history for most people - and how long one survived depended on the luck of the draw (the odds were better for males since so many women (up until recently) died in childbirth (which was one of the main reasons men might have several wives over the course of a lifetime.)) https://www.verywellhealth.com/longevity-throughout-history-2224054 That's very interesting - although I'm not convinced life was terrible. Even if life expectancy is shorter, I suspect many people enjoyed much of their life. At least, that's what I gather from books I've read that were written 100+ years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabonga | 2,317 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, avatar! said: That's very interesting - although I'm not convinced life was terrible. Even if life expectancy is shorter, I suspect many people enjoyed much of their life. At least, that's what I gather from books I've read that were written 100+ years ago That has to tempered with the fact that the further back you go the more filtered the reporting. For example in the Middle Ages the serfs by and large weren't even remotely literate (and they lived much shorter squalid lives than the clergy and nobility) so surviving accounts didn't reflect their lives much (if at all). While the serfs had to struggle for a marginal existence the male nobility got to worry about hemorrhoids (caused by sitting on warhorses whilst wearing heavy suits of armor) - said hemorrhoids did not prevent the armored horsemen from literally trampling their own mustered levees (consisting of said serfs) in their haste to get at the enemy. Life was also often very conditional - if something such as a disease wiped out much of the population there was not much to be done about it. If you read about the medieval warming period there was a huge population growth in Europe as agricultural land became more productive and marginal lands became productive. The little ice age hits and decimates cereal crops and most of the population starves - weakening their resistance to the later waves of bubonic plague that wiped out as much as 3/4 of the population*. Some areas of Europe didn't regain the population peaks until the late 1800s. *Some historians credit that with destroying the feudal system (which was actually a good thing IMHO) since the labor of survivors was valuable and the serfs could move to the cities. Without the essentially slave labor to support it the feudal system could no longer function. Edited August 21, 2021 by Tabonga 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar! | 1,810 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Tabonga said: That has to tempered with the fact that the further back you go the more filtered the reporting. For example in the Middle Ages the serfs by and large weren't even remotely literate (and they lived much shorter squalid lives than the clergy and nobility) so surviving accounts didn't reflect their lives much (if at all). While the serfs had to struggle for a marginal existence the male nobility got to worry about hemorrhoids (caused by sitting on warhorses whilst wearing heavy suits of armor) - said hemorrhoids did not prevent the armored horsemen from literally trampling their own mustered levees (consisting of said serfs) in their haste to get at the enemy. Life was also often very conditional - if something such as a disease wiped out much of the population there was not much to be done about it. If you read about the medieval warming period there was a huge population growth in Europe as agricultural land became more productive and marginal lands became productive. The little ice age hits and decimates cereal crops and most of the population starves - weakening their resistance to the later waves of bubonic plague that wiped out as much as 3/4 of the population*. Some areas of Europe didn't regain the population peaks until the late 1800s. *Some historians credit that with destroying the feudal system (which was actually a good thing IMHO) since the labor of survivors was valuable and the serfs could move to the cities. Without the essentially slave labor to support it the feudal system could no longer function. Based upon what we do know, life was often hard, BUT I do believe people enjoyed their lives to the same extent we do today. Of course, I don't know that for certain, and it depends on numerous conditions - but again that's what I believe based upon what I've read and learned and there is some evidence to back up that claim - let's consider the infamous Middle Ages https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/myths-middle-ages-what-life-like-facts/ Was life short? It’s also misleading to think that life span was considerably reduced. Averages are skewed by the very high mortality rates in periods of epidemic disease, such as the Black Death of 1348 and by the high incidence of childhood mortality. In fact, sources provide many examples of village elders in their eighties, able to reminisce about the profound social changes since their childhood. Peasants were not dumb nor powerless... As for their more general acumen, many peasants were able to draw effectively on strategic and quite sophisticated rationales about how to manage their agricultural concerns. And the surviving legal evidence right across Europe demonstrates that peasants knew how to engage with legal systems and courts to their advantage – whether in disputes with neighbours, with their husbands and wives, or indeed their overlords. One good reason to believe life was not all gloom-n-doom is humor Whilst it may not always be to our taste, medieval life was imbued with wit and humour. There was an appetite for jokes, ranging from the subtle and sophisticated to the obscene and bawdy. Torture and capital punishment - not as common as you think In very many cases, corporal punishment was actually commuted to a monetary payment instead. Very often authorities were quite reluctant to punish people in a bodily manner. And when executions did happen, they often provoked pity and horror: in fact, that was precisely the point. Kids be kids... This has since been most comprehensively illustrated in the work of Nicholas Orme on medieval education. The survival of medieval toys provides a touching indication that children were often thought of as rather special. They rode hobby-horses, played with marbles, and cuddled dolls. https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/did-medieval-people-take-baths-why-they-were-cleaner-than-we-think-middle-ages-hygiene-handwash-washing-cleanliness-coronavirus-plague-covid/ Yes, people did clean themselves regularly in Medieval Europe In the film Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975), two minor characters spot King Arthur. They know who he is because, as one of them points out: “He must be a king… he hasn’t got shit all over him.” The scene encapsulates an enduring belief about the Middle Ages: medieval people, and especially medieval peasants, were dirty and smelly...Contrary to popular belief, medieval doctors were enthusiastic about the benefits of bathing...many households owned a large wooden tub, lined with cloth and sometimes covered by a canopy, which could be filled with hot water heated over the fire. Ownership of basins and ewers (large jugs) used for washing the hands and face extended to all but the poorest. Hair was cleaned with water, sometimes mixed with ash and herbs to make it shiny and sweet-smelling. Daily combing was also important, and was sometimes combined with the sprinkling of special powders (made from fragrant ingredients such as rose petals). Teeth... Medieval people were also well aware of the importance of good dental hygiene. They were advised to rinse their teeth with water on waking, to wash off any mucus that had built up overnight. Gilbert the Englishman, a 13th-century doctor, suggested rubbing teeth with powders made from herbs such as mint or marjoram, although he cautioned against using hot spices which would make teeth rot. He also advised patients “to dry the teeth after eating with a dry linen cloth… so that no food sticks to them, and there will be no putrid matter among the teeth to make them rotten.” According to Gerald of Wales, the Welsh were particularly enthusiastic teeth-cleaners: “They are constantly cleaning them with green hazel-shoots and then rubbing them with woollen cloths until they shine like ivory.” Washing clothes Clothes could be washed in a tub, often with stale urine or wood ash added to the water, and trampled underfoot or beaten with a wooden bat until clean. But many women did their washing in rivers and streams, and larger rivers often had special jetties to facilitate this, such as ‘le levenderebrigge’ on the Thames. In fact, so great was the popular enthusiasm for washing that it sometimes caused complaints. I LOVE history 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickman | 3,983 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 1 hour ago, avatar! said: Based upon what we do know, life was often hard, BUT I do believe people enjoyed their lives to the same extent we do today. Of course, I don't know that for certain, and it depends on numerous conditions - but again that's what I believe based upon what I've read and learned and there is some evidence to back up that claim - let's consider the infamous Middle Ages https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/myths-middle-ages-what-life-like-facts/ Was life short? It’s also misleading to think that life span was considerably reduced. Averages are skewed by the very high mortality rates in periods of epidemic disease, such as the Black Death of 1348 and by the high incidence of childhood mortality. In fact, sources provide many examples of village elders in their eighties, able to reminisce about the profound social changes since their childhood. Peasants were not dumb nor powerless... As for their more general acumen, many peasants were able to draw effectively on strategic and quite sophisticated rationales about how to manage their agricultural concerns. And the surviving legal evidence right across Europe demonstrates that peasants knew how to engage with legal systems and courts to their advantage – whether in disputes with neighbours, with their husbands and wives, or indeed their overlords. One good reason to believe life was not all gloom-n-doom is humor Whilst it may not always be to our taste, medieval life was imbued with wit and humour. There was an appetite for jokes, ranging from the subtle and sophisticated to the obscene and bawdy. Torture and capital punishment - not as common as you think In very many cases, corporal punishment was actually commuted to a monetary payment instead. Very often authorities were quite reluctant to punish people in a bodily manner. And when executions did happen, they often provoked pity and horror: in fact, that was precisely the point. Kids be kids... This has since been most comprehensively illustrated in the work of Nicholas Orme on medieval education. The survival of medieval toys provides a touching indication that children were often thought of as rather special. They rode hobby-horses, played with marbles, and cuddled dolls. https://www.historyextra.com/period/medieval/did-medieval-people-take-baths-why-they-were-cleaner-than-we-think-middle-ages-hygiene-handwash-washing-cleanliness-coronavirus-plague-covid/ Yes, people did clean themselves regularly in Medieval Europe In the film Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975), two minor characters spot King Arthur. They know who he is because, as one of them points out: “He must be a king… he hasn’t got shit all over him.” The scene encapsulates an enduring belief about the Middle Ages: medieval people, and especially medieval peasants, were dirty and smelly...Contrary to popular belief, medieval doctors were enthusiastic about the benefits of bathing...many households owned a large wooden tub, lined with cloth and sometimes covered by a canopy, which could be filled with hot water heated over the fire. Ownership of basins and ewers (large jugs) used for washing the hands and face extended to all but the poorest. Hair was cleaned with water, sometimes mixed with ash and herbs to make it shiny and sweet-smelling. Daily combing was also important, and was sometimes combined with the sprinkling of special powders (made from fragrant ingredients such as rose petals). Teeth... Medieval people were also well aware of the importance of good dental hygiene. They were advised to rinse their teeth with water on waking, to wash off any mucus that had built up overnight. Gilbert the Englishman, a 13th-century doctor, suggested rubbing teeth with powders made from herbs such as mint or marjoram, although he cautioned against using hot spices which would make teeth rot. He also advised patients “to dry the teeth after eating with a dry linen cloth… so that no food sticks to them, and there will be no putrid matter among the teeth to make them rotten.” According to Gerald of Wales, the Welsh were particularly enthusiastic teeth-cleaners: “They are constantly cleaning them with green hazel-shoots and then rubbing them with woollen cloths until they shine like ivory.” Washing clothes Clothes could be washed in a tub, often with stale urine or wood ash added to the water, and trampled underfoot or beaten with a wooden bat until clean. But many women did their washing in rivers and streams, and larger rivers often had special jetties to facilitate this, such as ‘le levenderebrigge’ on the Thames. In fact, so great was the popular enthusiasm for washing that it sometimes caused complaints. I LOVE history Good post and some great stuff I wasn’t aware of. I too lean to the side of for the most part people were rather happy with life to the same extent as modern times. I think some people like to think, well they didn’t have this or that, but if it isn’t invented yet or isn’t a common way of doing things how would you even know it is a better way of life? If you have some book recommendations I’d like to check them out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,520 Editorials Team · Posted August 22, 2021 Author Share Posted August 22, 2021 10 minutes ago, Shmup said: Good post and some great stuff I wasn’t aware of. I too lean to the side of for the most part people were rather happy with life to the same extent as modern times. I think some people like to think, well they didn’t have this or that, but if it isn’t invented yet or isn’t a common way of doing things how would you even know it is a better way of life? If you have some book recommendations I’d like to check them out. People in the 19th century: "Hey, 75% of our children survived! That's more than half!" People in the 21st century: "A video game preorder sold out before I could get a copy, and the Game of Thrones finale was trash. I'm depressed" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar! | 1,810 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 21 minutes ago, Shmup said: Good post and some great stuff I wasn’t aware of. I too lean to the side of for the most part people were rather happy with life to the same extent as modern times. I think some people like to think, well they didn’t have this or that, but if it isn’t invented yet or isn’t a common way of doing things how would you even know it is a better way of life? If you have some book recommendations I’d like to check them out. I always recommend the classics that were actually written during Medieval times such as The Book of the City of Ladies The Book of Margery Kempe Canterbury Tales Phisicke Against Fortune (Petrarch) Travels of Marco Polo etc. Now, you might say that the Canterbury Tales etc. are romanticized to a certain extent, and I'm not going to deny that. However, it does reflect the many castes in society and much of it is down to earth and filled with wonderful humor which I believe shows that life was filled with happiness and not just hardships. Also, I've read autobiographies of such people as Wynkyn de Worde (one of the earliest book printers in Europe) and honestly, it sounds like these people loved what they did and were happy! The art they produced is exquisite, and I wonder how could you produce such beautiful art if you had no happiness and quality of life... If you are looking for more contemporary books that deal with life "back in those days" - that I'm not so familiar with. I personally think the original source material is best. Just consider The Book of the City of Ladies by Christine de Pizan - in the book she argues about the importance of woman in society and that was in 1405! It shows that the "dark ages" were perhaps not as "dark" as we might think NB: most scholars today apparently reject the term "dark ages" and I think that is a good thing. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickman | 3,983 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 1 hour ago, avatar! said: I always recommend the classics that were actually written during Medieval times such as The Book of the City of Ladies The Book of Margery Kempe Canterbury Tales Phisicke Against Fortune (Petrarch) Travels of Marco Polo etc. Now, you might say that the Canterbury Tales etc. are romanticized to a certain extent, and I'm not going to deny that. However, it does reflect the many castes in society and much of it is down to earth and filled with wonderful humor which I believe shows that life was filled with happiness and not just hardships. Also, I've read autobiographies of such people as Wynkyn de Worde (one of the earliest book printers in Europe) and honestly, it sounds like these people loved what they did and were happy! The art they produced is exquisite, and I wonder how could you produce such beautiful art if you had no happiness and quality of life... If you are looking for more contemporary books that deal with life "back in those days" - that I'm not so familiar with. I personally think the original source material is best. Just consider The Book of the City of Ladies by Christine de Pizan - in the book she argues about the importance of woman in society and that was in 1405! It shows that the "dark ages" were perhaps not as "dark" as we might think NB: most scholars today apparently reject the term "dark ages" and I think that is a good thing. That was exactly what I was looking for, thanks for the recommendations. I try to avoid contemporary accounts and stick with the original where possible too. This will give me heaps to work through 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabonga | 2,317 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 (edited) I suspect that the picture of life back is was very tempered by when and where (life on a latifundia (which some historians see as leading to the development of the feudal system) was doubtless not a whole lot of fun for most residents - especially the slaves). https://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2016/02/a-historic-defecation-the-curious-case-of-the-lloyds-bank-turd/ And washing with water is all that and a bag of chips - assuming of course the water was relatively clean. For convenience sake back when most wells were dug near barns and houses (and if in a village in the middle of the village)* for convenience sakes - which ensured the water would be easily polluted**. One of the reasons it was not that long ago most people (even children) drank lots of alcohol was that fermenting stuff made even the most foul of water relatively safe to consume. As with so much we overlook the miracle of being able to just turn on a tap in the house and drink water - or wash clothes. *This would continue to be a problem in the American West until relatively recent times - the introduction of standard reliable electricity (yay REA) finally made it practical to put wells well apart from houses/barns on farms. **Sanitation was largely non existant - it was not uncommon in cities to just throw slops (of various noxious components) out the windows and onto the streets. If there was a cess pit it had to be emptied. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_farmer I really don't think I would trade life today for any position in society in the middle ages. Edited August 22, 2021 by Tabonga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabonga | 2,317 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Since we are talking about the fragility of human life in bygone eras I thought I would share my favorite scene from "The Seventh Seal" - which if someone has not seen they should. Terrific movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs1RNLLiHu4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avatar! | 1,810 Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 Oh yeah, reading this classic! (apropos for WATA and HA??) Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds Got a very nice edition too It's from a company called Easton Press https://www.eastonpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabonga | 2,317 Posted August 26, 2021 Share Posted August 26, 2021 I just got this in yesterday: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickman | 3,983 Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 I just finished off Silverthorn by Raymond E Feist. The first half of the book dragged but setup a great second half. While not better than Magician, it was still a great read. 4/5. Going to give Dune a go next. Figured I should finally knock it off my list with the new movie coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkchylde28 | 1,546 Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 Chapter after chapter of the most compelling thing I've picked up in ages. It's called "Heritage Auctions Thread," and I can't seem to put it down! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed Rothchild | 9,520 Editorials Team · Posted September 2, 2021 Author Share Posted September 2, 2021 Finished both of these up since they're relatively short King does I Am Legend. Definitely in the bottom half of his library, but not as bad as some people make it out to be. Not very good. Probably the worst book of his I've ever read, and I've read around 50 of them. Stephen King's Breakfast Club. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brickman | 3,983 Posted September 2, 2021 Share Posted September 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said: Finished both of these up since they're relatively short King does I Am Legend. Definitely in the bottom half of his library, but not as bad as some people make it out to be. Not very good. Probably the worst book of his I've ever read, and I've read around 50 of them. Stephen King's Breakfast Club. Found the same with Rage. I got two thirds in and gave up, it is definitely the worst King novel I've read too. Probably better he stopped publishing it, even if I don't believe it should have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now