Movie Debate #6: The Prestige (USE SPOILER TAGS)

[Gentlegamer | 171]

I like it, but I don't understand why Alfred was helping Wolverine instead of Batman.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

11 minutes ago, Gentlegamer said:

I like it, but I don't understand why Alfred was helping Wolverine instead of Batman.

Meanwhile, Smeagol and the Goblin King putter around in the mountains

[Gentlegamer | 171]

4 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Meanwhile, Smeagol and the Goblin King putter around in the mountains

Yeah, and Black Widow is married to Wolverine. That didn't make sense.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

4 minutes ago, Gentlegamer said:

Yeah, and Black Widow is married to Wolverine. That didn't make sense.

Looks like Smeagol is also now Alfred, just to further confuse things

[DoctorEncore | 3,690]

I enjoyed the movie and think it's extremely well-crafted, but it suffers in the same way several of Nolan's films do. That being said, I don't think any other active filmmaker could have pulled it off. So it's ultimately a success, but my gripes are below. Let the backlash begin!

Spoiler

• The Twist: The plot is too complicated and has too many sleights of hand. In some ways this is the whole point, to confuse the audience when the actual story is simple and straightforward. So I get it. But the more ornate your design, the weaker the overall structure (i.e. more room for plot holes).
• Unreliable Narrator: To make up for the potential plot problems, Nolan introduces the unreliable narrator. This is a trick as old as story-telling, but it's also a bit of cheat. Is what we are seeing onscreen actually happening? Or is it a visual representation of the purposefully misleading lies within the diary? Do the two have to be consistent at all? Were there clones? Most of the movie implies there are and a few scenes seem to confirm this, but not necessarily because of the unreliable narrator trope! This is a bit of a problem in Memento as well, especially at the end. It deflates some of the drama.
• Pseudoscience: Generally everything in the world follows the basic rules of physics. Except, of course, the machine and the clones. This is fine and dandy on its own, but coupled with the unreliable narrator, it feels a bit unfair to the viewer. My belief is that the machine and clones are not real, but we cannot definitively say as a viewer without more info. Interstellar has a big problem with psuedoscience and real science being incorrectly applied, which I found frustrating.
• Time Shifts: These are not necessarily good or bad, but can contribute to viewer confusion. Used correctly, time shifts can be an entertaining tool. But used too subtly, they are just a weapon against the audience.
• Common sense: This is a fun one to apply to any film and is certainly not a requirement for an enjoyable movie. But how likely is it that a pair of twins would commit so heavily to having a great magic act that they would be okay with losing a finger, deceiving their wife, driving her to suicide, and living half their life as a heavily disguised alter ego? Probably pretty unlikely. This is also a big problem for me with Interstellar. The plot and character motivations often make little sense.
• Is it fair? Again, not required for an enjoyable piece of entertainment, but an interesting question. Is there any reasonable way for a viewer to solve the mystery before it is revealed? I would say yes, but do you know of a single person who identified the twins before their reveal? It's better if people don't guess the twist on the first watch because it's way more fun that way. But did they have a fair shot? If anyone watched the first season of The Sinner, this was a huge complaint I had. There was no way to solve the crime before the answer was revealed. I'll avoid spoilers but it was because of one of the points I made above. Same question for viewers of the 6th Sense while we're here.

Anyways, it's a cool movie! And I like it! I just don't think it's as great as many others do. But Nolan is an amazing filmmaker. Certainly among the top five working today. I just think he and his brother get a little too cheeky for their own good sometimes.

Edited February 28, 2020 by DoctorEncore

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

Spoiler

There's theories that the clones and machine aren't real?  Then what is Borden seeing in the basement?  What is the alternate explanation to how his trick works?

 

[a3quit4s | 4,086]

I’ll go 7/10 I remember liking it but wouldn’t go out of my way to watch it. 

[TDIRunner | 2,718]

2 hours ago, DoctorEncore said:

 

Spoiler

Can you provide an example of an unreliable narrator?  I'm not sure that I agree with that statement at all.

Can I'm really confused how there would be any question about the clones.  That part is pretty straight forward to me.  I mean, the actually show it happening.

I would agree that the movie can be confusing.  It's the type of movie that REQUIRES your attention, and if you are not properly prepared, it would be easy to not enjoy the movie.  But it's completely worth your time and attention in my opinion.  

 

[DoctorEncore | 3,690]

24 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

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There's theories that the clones and machine aren't real?  Then what is Borden seeing in the basement?  What is the alternate explanation to how his trick works?

 

Spoiler

Per the theory, Angier uses a lookalike for the trick. This is consistent with Occum's Razor and the message we're repeatedly given throughout the movie: the trick is as simple as you think. There is no magic. Everything else is a distraction to lure Borden in. The giant vats are wheeled out every night to convince Borden there is something more, part of a complicated plot to frame him. At the end of the movie, the vats contain dead bodies or whatever else you can imagine inside, but not Angier clones. Borden doesn't bother to examine them because it doesn't matter.

A cool theory with lots of holes, similar to the regular plot.

But don't you find it a bit odd that a movie about misdirection, showmanship, and deceit would boil down to magic science clones?

Cutter: Now you're looking for the secret. But you won't find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

[DoctorEncore | 3,690]

48 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

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Can you provide an example of an unreliable narrator?  I'm not sure that I agree with that statement at all.

Can I'm really confused how there would be any question about the clones.  That part is pretty straight forward to me.  I mean, the actually show it happening.

I would agree that the movie can be confusing.  It's the type of movie that REQUIRES your attention, and if you are not properly prepared, it would be easy to not enjoy the movie.  But it's completely worth your time and attention in my opinion.  

 

Spoiler

I understand what happens in the movie, but I'm presenting an interesting alternate viewpoint that arises from reading into the themes of the film.

Don't forget that Borden's entire diary was a lie to send Angier on a wild goose hunt. Angier's diary is the same. What is presented on screen isn't necessarily what actually happened, but instead a visual representation of what is written in the diaries.

Of course Angier's final speech implies he really did clone himself and drown every night. This theory doesn't cross every T or dot every I, but it's certaintly fun to contemplate!

I wouldn't give any other writer or director enough credit to disguise the plot, but it sure would make a lot of sense thematically if the entire movie was one giant turn.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by DoctorEncore

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

21 minutes ago, DoctorEncore said:

  Hide contents

Per the theory, Angier uses a lookalike for the trick. This is consistent with Occum's Razor and the message we're repeatedly given throughout the movie: the trick is as simple as you think. There is no magic. Everything else is a distraction to lure Borden in. The giant vats are wheeled out every night to convince Borden there is something more, part of a complicated plot to frame him. At the end of the movie, the vats contain dead bodies or whatever else you can imagine inside, but not Angier clones. Borden doesn't bother to examine them because it doesn't matter.

A cool theory with lots of holes, similar to the regular plot.

But don't you find it a bit odd that a movie about misdirection, showmanship, and deceit would boil down to magic science clones?

Cutter: Now you're looking for the secret. But you won't find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Spoiler

Id say the magic science clones are the misdirection for what the movie really boils down to: dedicating your entire life to the trick

 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

Interesting theories though

[DoctorEncore | 3,690]

10 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

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Id say the magic science clones are the misdirection for what the movie really boils down to: dedicating your entire life to the trick

 

I agree that's a totally reasonable interpretation and probably the correct interpretation. I just WANT it to be about that and more. Am I projecting my wants into the movie? Absolutely. Great choice for a debate.

[TDIRunner | 2,718]

Spoiler

 

Let's not forget that he caused his clones (really himself) to die in the same way as his wife, which is obviously deliberate.

I wonder why he didn't consider only cloning himself once and continue to the two of them each time and not kill himself over and over again.  But I guess the point with the ending is that he refused to believe that the trick was simply done with two people.  

 

 

[DoctorEncore | 3,690]

5 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

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Let's not forget that he caused his clones (really himself) to die in the same way as his wife, which is obviously deliberate.

I wonder why he didn't consider only cloning himself once and continue to the two of them each time and not kill himself over and over again.  But I guess the point with the ending is that he refused to believe that the trick was simply done with two people.  

 

 

Spoiler

Yeah, that's the most annoying part about the clone ending. He could have done it with a single clone. Although I guess he wanted to make sure it was the same every night in case Borden somehow snuck past him? Or maybe the suffering is part of the commitment to the craft?

Regardless, this is why I don't like the clones as a plot device. They provide an easy answer for an otherwise intricately crafted tale.

 

[TDIRunner | 2,718]

1 minute ago, DoctorEncore said:

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Yeah, that's the most annoying part about the clone ending. He could have done it with a single clone. Although I guess he wanted to make sure it was the same every night in case Borden somehow snuck past him? Or maybe the suffering is part of the commitment to the craft?

Regardless, this is why I don't like the clones as a plot device. They provide an easy answer for an otherwise intricately crafted tale.

 

Spoiler

I would say a combination of the suffering the same as his wife, along with the refusal to believe that the trick was simply done with two people.  He wanted the crowds approval.  No one cares about the man in the box.

 

[Gentlegamer | 171]

Point of Order: if there's gonna be a thread where people rate a movie, the whole thread should be spoiler territory and those who want to avoid should stay out.

It's going to be incredibly cumbersome to discuss or read using nested spoilers.

[TDIRunner | 2,718]

I think that's fair.  If you don't want spoilers, you are in no position to be rating the movie anyway.  

[Splain | 2,560]

Before I saw this movie, I remember it came out closeish to The Illusionist, and people used to talk about them at the same time. I remember thinking Illusionist was pretty weak, and sure enough, years later I never hear about the Illusionist anymore.

 

[TDIRunner | 2,718]

13 minutes ago, Splain said:

Before I saw this movie, I remember it came out closeish to The Illusionist, and people used to talk about them at the same time. I remember thinking Illusionist was pretty weak, and sure enough, years later I never hear about the Illusionist anymore.

 

I watched The Illusionist after The Prestige just because I was hoping for something similar, but overall I was pretty disappointed.  If I had never seen The Prestige, I probably would have like The Illusionist better.  

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

46 minutes ago, Gentlegamer said:

Point of Order: if there's gonna be a thread where people rate a movie, the whole thread should be spoiler territory and those who want to avoid should stay out.

It's going to be incredibly cumbersome to discuss or read using nested spoilers.

But gloves needs to come in and post that he's never heard of it 

[Sumez | 2,927]

On 2/28/2020 at 4:53 PM, TDIRunner said:

Spoiler

With that said, the plot twist at the end of the movie is a big deal because it completely changes the movie on your second viewing.  Once you know what is going on, it's actually fun to try and figure out which brother is in each scene.  There are clues and hints almost every time.

 

I get all of this. I just think it's gimmicky and like I said, it doesn't make the movie any better. Its qualities isn't in the mystery, but in the direction and storytelling itself.

Kind of like @DoctorEncore said... it feels at odds with the genuinely straightforward story being told.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Sumez

[Reed Rothchild | 9,494]

Final bumpage

[JamesRobot | 5,778]

Finally got around to rewatching.  I'd say it just barely slips into the 8 category.  I didn't previously vote because I kept mixing it up with the Illusionist since I watched em both around the same time. 

I forgot about Bowie playing the roll of Tesla and did a double take when he first appeared.  Perfect casting there.