arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: ? because he opposed govt provided needle exchanges for junkies. LOL ok. Do you not recognize that as being a clear marker of a person who doesn't accept the conclusions reached by studies from the medical community, in preference to their own biases? There is a lot of supporting research that comes to the clear conclusion that needle exchanges effectively combat blood-borne diseases and cut down on discarded needles in public places. (aside from serving as an avenue to connect addicts with better support services through having a contact-mechanism) Pence dragging his feet (though eventually capitulating and having limited needle exchanges) materially worsened an AIDS outbreak in his state. That kind of doofus isn't the person you want in charge of a national response to a potential epidemic of any kind. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captmorgandrinker | 1,649 Administrator · Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 13 hours ago, Estil said: Well now wait a sec, just how far did these go and were these as contagious as the current Corona virus? And I'm pretty sure no one really thought any of these were gonna "kill us all" The hype train was just as high on all of those at the time (especially round two of Ebola) as it is for this year's thing. Next year it will be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest4Nes | 376 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said: Do you not recognize that as being a clear marker of a person who doesn't accept the conclusions reached by studies from the medical community, in preference to their own biases? There is a lot of supporting research that comes to the clear conclusion that needle exchanges effectively combat blood-borne diseases and cut down on discarded needles in public places. (aside from serving as an avenue to connect addicts with better support services through having a contact-mechanism) Pence dragging his feet (though eventually capitulating and having limited needle exchanges) materially worsened an AIDS outbreak in his state. That kind of doofus isn't the person you want in charge of a national response to a potential epidemic of any kind. To act like a govt funded needle exchange isnt a controversial issue is disingenuous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Quest4Nes said: To act like a govt funded needle exchange isnt a controversial issue is disingenuous. To act like the studies are unclear in their conclusions is similarly disingenuous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest4Nes | 376 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 Just now, arch_8ngel said: To act like the studies are unclear in their conclusions is similarly disingenuous. as long as you admit to being disingenuous, im fine with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) Double post. Edited March 3, 2020 by epiclotus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 14 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: ? because he opposed govt provided needle exchanges for junkies. LOL ok. politicizing this damn virus is annoying. Its why trump is going to win again. Everything is the worst ever and hyperbole. This is getting out of hand. Umm, I never said anything about his needle exchange debacle. That's all you mentioning that one. What I don't like is the messaging from scientific agencies like the CDC being filtered through a politician. ANY politician. Politicians aren't scientists, they rarely understand the most basic of scientific concepts, and there is serious concern that essential information will be downplayed or spun to benefit the party of said politician. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: as long as you admit to being disingenuous, im fine with that. Giving Pence a hard time over it isn't being disingenuous, at all. At the time Pence dragged his feet on the issue, the medical science was already clear that needle exchanges worked. Doesn't mean it wasn't POLITICALLY controversial, from the view of his supporters, but it was certainly not "controversial" when it came to the science supporting rolling those programs out faster and on a less limited basis. Edited March 3, 2020 by arch_8ngel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch_8ngel | 1,597 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, epiclotus said: Umm, I never said anything about his needle exchange debacle. That's all you mentioning that one. What I don't like is the messaging from scientific agencies like the CDC being filtered through a politician. ANY politician. Politicians aren't scientists, they rarely understand the most basic of scientific concepts, and there is serious concern that essential information will be downplayed or spun to benefit the party of said politician. Yeah, I brought the specifics of Pence's unfitness, in particular, into it. Though I agree that any political filter on this kind of news is bad for everybody. CDC should be providing their own reports, at a level of detail they believe to be useful/actionable, without any political interference. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said: Yeah, I brought the specifics of Pence's unfitness, in particular, into it. Though I agree that any political filter on this kind of news is bad for everybody. CDC should be providing their own reports, at a level of detail they believe to be useful/actionable, without any political interference. Don't misunderstand me, I ALSO agree that Pence is particularly unfit to handle this job. 14 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: To act like a govt funded needle exchange isnt a controversial issue is disingenuous. Nobody deserves HIV. Full stop, no questions, no arguments. Addiction is a sickness where the ability of the individual to control themselves has been lost. Whatever the reason is that they're an addict, they still don't deserve HIV. Addicts will do insane things to get their fix, including sharing needles. This gives them an increased risk of contracting HIV because of a compulsive sickness they cannot rationally control. Providing free needle exchanges lowers the risk of HIV spreading by keeping used needles off the streets. Remember, HIV spreading is BAD. Lowering the spread of HIV is GOOD. Tax dollars are meant to be spent on the common good. If you think a needle exchange is controversial, your only defense is that you think these people deserve to get HIV. That is a BAD stance. Be kind to your fellow man. It's the only way the world gets better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest4Nes | 376 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 I like the spin of, " if you dont support government funded program junkie needle exchange then you think people deserve HIV" Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: I like the spin of, " if you dont support government funded program junkie needle exchange then you think people deserve HIV" Nice Please explain your opposition, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estil | 1,261 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, captmorgandrinker said: The hype train was just as high on all of those at the time (especially round two of Ebola) as it is for this year's thing. Next year it will be something else. But did the media hype as well as the spread of it get this far for those previous ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estil | 1,261 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said: There is a lot of supporting research that comes to the clear conclusion that needle exchanges effectively combat blood-borne diseases and cut down on discarded needles in public places. (aside from serving as an avenue to connect addicts with better support services through having a contact-mechanism) It's my understanding though, the people using those needle exchanges don't necessarily have to be from illegal drugs though. I mean aren't there other uses for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Estil said: It's my understanding though, the people using those needle exchanges don't necessarily have to be from illegal drugs though. I mean aren't there other uses for them? People that utilize needle exchanges are people that don't have access to the insurance needed to acquire them. You can't just walk into a Walgreens and buy needles. You need a prescription for them. That's why the needle exchanges are needed because someone looking for a fix has no safe recourse, and of course the addiction is stronger than the desire to not get a blood-borne illness like HIV. Edited March 3, 2020 by epiclotus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH | 4,895 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, arch_8ngel said: You get the flu every two years even WITH a flu shot? Or do you not bother to get vaccinated every year? Some years I do, some years I don't. I appreciate solid science and I know how vaccines work. I also know that you can't get sick with the Flu but about 75% of the time when I get a flu shot, I am completely "dead" the next day. I think my body reacts knowing that it has something it thinks it should fight and I'm achy, I'm beyond any normal level of exhaustion and I am completely functionless. So, I some years a I hedge my bets to avoid the potential, really bad day while other years if there's prediction of a bad flu season, I'll take my chances and get the shot. And to be clear, I have gotten the flu on the years without the vaccine, and I have gotten the flu WITH the vaccine. It seems it's my luck that the years I get it, there's some strand of the flu that wasn't covered and that's the one I get. Edited March 3, 2020 by RH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fcgamer | 4,719 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 No mention or reference at all to the guy who is posting how things truly are , the guy quite in the middle of things. I guess this should make the reality clear enough. Lol. Let's place bets and compare notes in a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, fcgamer said: No mention or reference at all to the guy who is posting how things truly are , the guy quite in the middle of things. I guess this should make the reality clear enough. Lol. Let's place bets and compare notes in a year. Which guy is that, and which outbreak is he in the middle of monitoring? There are several disconcerting pockets of the virus, both in China and in other countries like Iran and Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest4Nes | 376 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, epiclotus said: Please explain your opposition, then. Real consequences to actions and saying someone deserves something are not the same. And its the whole "govt provided" part I dont agree with and will never. Providing needles enabling their bad life choices doesnt mean they wont get HIV. QMost addicts will probably die from drug use before HIV anyway Taking drugs and risking their life is their choice. They know the risks. No one inherently deserves it. Its a result of actions they know arent right. Edited March 3, 2020 by Quest4Nes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln | 230 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 14 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: Real consequences to actions and saying someone deserves something are not the same. And its the whole "govt provided" part I dont agree with and will never. Providing needles enabling their bad life choices doesnt mean they wont get HIV. QMost addicts will probably die from drug use before HIV anyway Taking drugs and risking their life is their choice. They know the risks. No one inherently deserves it. Its a result of actions they know arent right. Well, as with most things, reality disagrees with your worldview. The people who make use of needle exchanges are those who are addicted beyond the point of making rational decisions. They're gonna find a way, clean needle or not. The people who benefit from needle exchanges are everyone. Reducing incidence of disease in a community is good for the community as a whole. It's a public service, and saves money in the long run. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegHead | 127 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 20 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said: Taking drugs and risking their life is their choice. They know the risks. No one inherently deserves it. Its a result of actions they know arent right. Sure, at some point, someone made the decision to take drugs when they still had some kind of rational ability to choose otherwise. I agree with that, and that such a choice is really bad for both oneself and the community. There are no perfect people in this world, though, and mistakes get made. Addiction is a state of being beyond where rational choices can be made. The only thing a needle exchange program does is provide them with a better chance not to contract a horrible illness on top of their addiction. As you say, most drug addicts will die from drug use; that, right there, is the consequence of their poor choice. We can't always help that end, even with good counsel and help. The spread of HIV to the drug using communities because of reused needles, though, is an unintended consequence. Nobody is choosing to get HIV. I am not saying we should be facilitating them with the drugs to continue their addiction. Clean needles are not an enabler. These people also need food and water to survive and continue their habit of taking drugs. Should we deny them those things, as well? Let them die of starvation or dehydration? Should the homeless be denied the use of a shelter, or should they be forced to suffer the elements and die of exposure or pneumonia? Where do you draw the line that people should just have to deal with the consequences of their lives when society, both privately and through gov't programs, can provide help? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estil | 1,261 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, epiclotus said: People that utilize needle exchanges are people that don't have access to the insurance needed to acquire them. You can't just walk into a Walgreens and buy needles. You need a prescription for them. That's why the needle exchanges are needed because someone looking for a fix has no safe recourse, and of course the addiction is stronger than the desire to not get a blood-borne illness like HIV. I think that would be the best argument in favor of needle exchanges TBH. See people may expect and ass-u-me that this only for illegal drug users and obviously that's not necessarily true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estil | 1,261 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 1 hour ago, RH said: Some years I do, some years I don't. I appreciate solid science and I know how vaccines work. I also know that you can't get sick with the Flu but about 75% of the time when I get a flu shot, I am completely "dead" the next day. I think my body reacts knowing that it has something it thinks it should fight and I'm achy, I'm beyond any normal level of exhaustion and I am completely functionless. So, I some years a I hedge my bets to avoid the potential, really bad day while other years if there's prediction of a bad flu season, I'll take my chances and get the shot. And to be clear, I have gotten the flu on the years without the vaccine, and I have gotten the flu WITH the vaccine. It seems it's my luck that the years I get it, there's some strand of the flu that wasn't covered and that's the one I get. Well the main problem with flu is that there's many different kinds of flu viruses just like there are many different kinds of cold viruses. So even if you can cure/vaccinate for one kind, it won't necessarily work for any of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsped09 | 223 Moderator · Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Estil said: Well the main problem with flu is that there's many different kinds of flu viruses just like there are many different kinds of cold viruses. So even if you can cure/vaccinate for one kind, it won't necessarily work for any of the others. As a person who gets the flu shot every year, I'd rather have some protection, than none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoln | 230 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, fsped09 said: As a person who gets the flu shot every year, I'd rather have some protection, than none. I think there's some evidence that a flu shot will at least reduce the severity of illness if you do happen to catch it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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