The Spreading (And Potentially Deadly) Coronavirus Epidemic....

[Hammerfestus | 3,832]

 

[Tenjikuronin | 1,719]

[fcgamer | 4,721]

So the rest of the world is done with covid 19, as evidenced by this thread slipping into the second page, but sadly Taiwan is still going full strength.

82 local cases today, though it seems to be a bit hush hush what caused it, something with police officers it seems

Then that big buffoon of a health administrator made an announcement that we won't open up for tourists in 2022, yet all the fake "locals" can come and go as they please. Still ten days quarantine time.

Things have gotten absurd, it's time to move the F on.

[Hammerfestus | 3,832]

On 3/10/2022 at 8:48 PM, Tenjikuronin said:

Legitimately still wearing a mask everywhere because the thought of having to breathe the same air as these hill jacks disgusts me.  

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

So the rest of the world is done with covid 19, as evidenced by this thread slipping into the second page, but sadly Taiwan is still going full strength.

82 local cases today, though it seems to be a bit hush hush what caused it, something with police officers it seems

Then that big buffoon of a health administrator made an announcement that we won't open up for tourists in 2022, yet all the fake "locals" can come and go as they please. Still ten days quarantine time.

Things have gotten absurd, it's time to move the F on.

Oh, it's not nearly done, it's just that the people who didn't believe in it in the first place or are just so tired of having to take basic precautions (in the face of the people who just don't believe in it taking zero) just giving up on trying to do anything about it.  The CDC proved from the beginning that while its science was sound, the announcements it makes veer sharply toward the political, and thus you end up with the declaration about how EVERYBODY (who is vaccinated) can go ahead and remove their masks, be in close proximity to people (who are wearing masks), etc.  Which, of course, causes the same thing to happen the last time that any group was given carte blanche to remove their masks--everybody does it.

I basically got tired of talking about it with people because it's been made clear that there's basically no discussion to be had here.  Much like with religious folks, people have basically made up their mind and refuse to give on any front, fact, etc., even if it doesn't actually affect an outcome that's already in their favor.  I and my family still wear masks when we go out, and I was heartened the other day that upon walking into my local Walmart, I wasn't nearly the only person doing so--I almost immediately spotted another half dozen to dozen people who were wearing their masks, keeping their distance from other folks, and yet going about their day like they would normally.  And no, this wasn't just a bunch of at-risk elderly people, all but one were in their 20s-40s, with a single elderly gentleman riding along on his scooter, having to wait for large enough gaps in the groups of unmasked in order to pull out and go where he wanted while still maintaining distance.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

@darkchylde28 I'm just curious, what do you think the best way forward is?

 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

33 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@darkchylde28 I'm just curious, what do you think the best way forward is?

Masks, sanitizer, and social distancing all helped reduce numbers in communities that actually followed those guidelines, and vaccination boosted those numbers even more.  I honestly don't think the numbers are anywhere near where they should be in order to give any group a free pass at this point, especially since doing so just gives those who won't follow simple, non-intrusive guidelines an excuse to pretend to be part of the same group and keep ignoring all the guidelines anyway.

Personally, I think we should still be doing all those basics I mentioned and, for probably the first time ever during this whole thing, someone should be enforcing them.  Stores should be enforcing them when customers enter, as well as having roaming staff keeping an eye out for those who put on a mask for a few moments to get past the entrance and then immediately ditch it the moment they're past "security."  Law enforcement should be able to be counted on to actually make people do what they're supposed to in that regard when they're in areas that it's required, as well as actually hand out tickets/fines as they were supposed to when things were locked down fairly tight at the beginning of this thing.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again--if everybody just actually followed the guidelines for a month or so, probably six weeks at the outside, this would all be over, as people wouldn't be spreading the shit to each other like crazy and you'd eventually get to the point where nearly all of the cases were actually contained within medical facilities.

Of my immediate family, my household and my brother have been the only ones to not end up catching this thing.  Everybody on my wife's side has managed to catch it, and I believe it's due to the fact that all of them have either been lax or totally dismissive of the basic precautions, and IIRC, my brother in law was the only one out of them all that got vaccinated.  Thankfully everybody had a fairly mild case, but who's to know how many people any of them might have exposed before their symptoms got bad enough for them to realize they might be in trouble.  My mother in law ended up with a bit of karma in regard to that, as her company had encouraged everybody to get vaccinated from the get go and offered free, paid time off for anyone who go COVID who was vaccinated.  Steam apparently nearly shot out of my MIL's ears when she got it, then got told she had to use her vacation time in order to get paid during the time she was out, then got told she'd basically have to test negative via the company's health provider (and not CVS, Walgreen's, etc.) before they'd let her come back.

I don't wish anybody any ill will, but damn am I tired of people being so ridiculously stupid and selfish.  I, too, am beyond ready for this all to end an things to go back to normal, but I also love my family enough to keep a close eye on how things are really going and do everything I can to keep them safe seeing as we all know how this crap can turn out.

[Mega Tank | 960]

20 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

Masks, sanitizer, and social distancing all helped reduce numbers in communities that actually followed those guidelines, and vaccination boosted those numbers even more.  I honestly don't think the numbers are anywhere near where they should be in order to give any group a free pass at this point, especially since doing so just gives those who won't follow simple, non-intrusive guidelines an excuse to pretend to be part of the same group and keep ignoring all the guidelines anyway.

Personally, I think we should still be doing all those basics I mentioned and, for probably the first time ever during this whole thing, someone should be enforcing them.  Stores should be enforcing them when customers enter, as well as having roaming staff keeping an eye out for those who put on a mask for a few moments to get past the entrance and then immediately ditch it the moment they're past "security."  Law enforcement should be able to be counted on to actually make people do what they're supposed to in that regard when they're in areas that it's required, as well as actually hand out tickets/fines as they were supposed to when things were locked down fairly tight at the beginning of this thing.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again--if everybody just actually followed the guidelines for a month or so, probably six weeks at the outside, this would all be over, as people wouldn't be spreading the shit to each other like crazy and you'd eventually get to the point where nearly all of the cases were actually contained within medical facilities.

Of my immediate family, my household and my brother have been the only ones to not end up catching this thing.  Everybody on my wife's side has managed to catch it, and I believe it's due to the fact that all of them have either been lax or totally dismissive of the basic precautions, and IIRC, my brother in law was the only one out of them all that got vaccinated.  Thankfully everybody had a fairly mild case, but who's to know how many people any of them might have exposed before their symptoms got bad enough for them to realize they might be in trouble.  My mother in law ended up with a bit of karma in regard to that, as her company had encouraged everybody to get vaccinated from the get go and offered free, paid time off for anyone who go COVID who was vaccinated.  Steam apparently nearly shot out of my MIL's ears when she got it, then got told she had to use her vacation time in order to get paid during the time she was out, then got told she'd basically have to test negative via the company's health provider (and not CVS, Walgreen's, etc.) before they'd let her come back.

I don't wish anybody any ill will, but damn am I tired of people being so ridiculously stupid and selfish.  I, too, am beyond ready for this all to end an things to go back to normal, but I also love my family enough to keep a close eye on how things are really going and do everything I can to keep them safe seeing as we all know how this crap can turn out.

When enforcement was a thing around here, locally, it was apparently selective enforcement. Certain businesses claimed they were being targeted unfairly, which is obvious not right.

It is interesting seeing private restaurants and businesses have signs up ststing masks must be worn, though the the state does not allow this, and employees are running around without masks anyways.

I still wear a mask, but I don't frown upon people that don't, nor so I suggest they wear one, unless they are coming into our home, which I politely ask they do and they comply. Only so far has not had a mask with them, so they asked for one and had no issue wearing it.

[Estil | 1,264]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:48 PM, Tenjikuronin said:

I thought the "my body my choice" line was used by...eh...never mind...

EDIT: My bad I thought the lines for excuses made by people who aren't wearing masks or are not vaccinated...I was especially mixed up by the "No gov't line..."

Edited March 28, 2022 by Estil

[fcgamer | 4,721]

If they want to actually enforce things, it's gotta be done solely by private security and the police.

There's been many cases here in Taiwan, which is a relatively non violent country, where employees ended up beat, blinded, dead, etc over some asshole not wearing a mask or following policy. I reckon in the States it would turn violent quickly.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

@darkchylde28I appreciate your detailed response, and I agree with most of it.

What I'm really curious though, is what we should be doing on an international level? Some places have quarantine policies, some don't, some places let people in for travel, some don't. In my case, my parents and brother can't even come visit me, yet people with less ties to the island than me (i.e. Taiwanense face, yet resided abroad for decades, or born abroad) can enter freely.

I mean, supply chains and stuff are still f'ed, we can't even send parcels to England unless it's shipped via private courier! South America, similar situation,many parts of Africa, Canada only ems is available...

Something's gotta give, sooner rather than later. That's what I'm wondering about, if just accepting covid-19 and moving on isn't the best way forward, then what is? Never being able to send a parcel via regular post to England isn't reasonable, imo.

 

[Tanooki | 4,931]

I can't speak for elsewhere, but around here I don't see them much anymore in large numbers.  As dark pointed out, things gone political with it.  Usually you find those wearing them around here now are the more elderly, obviously have some health issue, and then largely the few others seem to be those doing it along those lines of politics(either for them, or because they scared them into it or a sense of justice, whatever the case).

More and more stores, national chains, they're all dropping any of it, some even the plastic walls at counters too.  At this rate in this area it's more or less just over, you can choose to cover up and that's about it, but it's not to the point you get an odd glance for it yet, outside of retail shop people still seemingly wearing them more than not at least at the registers.

And yes I would imagine if they dared try and force people backwards into wearing them in public, shielding off counters and the rest, people would riot and I can't say I'd blame anyone for getting that pissed off either.  What's done is done, had ti been handled well a couple years ago now in the first place and stayed all science and not gone all political, targeting some over others, do as I say not as I do type antics, then no no rioting.  People are just largely over it, didn't care at first, or grew to consider it an acceptable risk.  Personally that's where I am, I'm done with it, it's a risk I'm willing to accept.  I still sanitize more than before all the same, but no more covers, and in the rare case I find a store that requires it, I leave as it's not like whatever is there is life or death.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

The idea that low level retail employees are going to “enforce” any type of mask wearing is nonsense. America is far too selfish for that. 
 

“ I know you make 7.00$ an hour, please get into a physical altercation with an unreasonable person because they don’t want to wear a mask”

lol

[Link | 2,709]

It's political because a certain non-political politician thought just acknowledging it as a problem would look make him look bad. 

[FireHazard51 | 2,043]

46 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

The idea that low level retail employees are going to “enforce” any type of mask wearing is nonsense. America is far too selfish for that. 
 

“ I know you make 7.00$ an hour, please get into a physical altercation with an unreasonable person because they don’t want to wear a mask”

lol

Unless companies are going to start hiring bouncers like bars and concert venues, the only way to force an unwilling person to leave the property due to them being told they are trespassing from not following store/company policy is to use the police.  And then the police will arrest the person if they don't leave based on trespassing laws.  I think this is the best means to enforce mask mandates even at the government level.  Mandate masks in buildings and if they don't wear them then they are kicked out.  This is no different than people who violate building/property requirements.  An example would be using a bull horn to protest in a building.  It's always comply with the requirements or you'll be told told to leave.  And if you don't you'll be charged with trespassing.  This happens all the time and many times it gets challenged in court and is upheld.  

This is also a sure fire way to determine if mask mandates are constitutional.  I think it's obvious that mask have to be made available for free in certain situation else you could be limiting someone's right to be there (access to something) based on economic discrimination (well that is what they would argue in court).  Funny how some things that cost money are considered an unlawful barrier to something and other things are not.  But this is what judges are for and our court system.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

1 hour ago, Link said:

It's political because a certain non-political politician thought just acknowledging it as a problem would look make him look bad. 

Maybe the mask situation in the States became political because of that, but if the WHO weren't in bed with China, it shouldn't have even spread as much as it did. 

Things were political waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before it even made it to the States, lol, because some crybaby country didn't want to admit that a deadly virus had been spreading around there.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

19 hours ago, Mega Tank said:

When enforcement was a thing around here, locally, it was apparently selective enforcement. Certain businesses claimed they were being targeted unfairly, which is obvious not right.

It is interesting seeing private restaurants and businesses have signs up ststing masks must be worn, though the the state does not allow this, and employees are running around without masks anyways.

I still wear a mask, but I don't frown upon people that don't, nor so I suggest they wear one, unless they are coming into our home, which I politely ask they do and they comply. Only so far has not had a mask with them, so they asked for one and had no issue wearing it.

We had almost no enforcement around here, period, beyond a few locally owned shops and the city's weekend farmer's market (and only when a seller prodded the cops on duty to do so, as well as wear their own masks).  Anything that was a big chain restaurant, or wasn't directly put together by the city government (school system events and such), forget about it.  Yeah, the flip flopping nonsense of requiring customers to mask up but not staff or vice versa is crap, and has probably lead to many people in many areas just ignoring the issue nowadays and adopting a stance of "it doesn't affect me, so I don't care."  As always, that attitude holds until one of them ends up in the hospital, or they kill a loved one by passing it to them, etc., but by then the damage is done, and where this has become so political and polarizing, the non-maskers count anyone who changes their position to one of more caution after a demonstrated tragedy as being on "the opposite side."  As if we don't all want things to return normal, and, you know, most importantly, people to stop dropping dead and/or developing permanent and severe side effects.

17 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If they want to actually enforce things, it's gotta be done solely by private security and the police.

There's been many cases here in Taiwan, which is a relatively non violent country, where employees ended up beat, blinded, dead, etc over some asshole not wearing a mask or following policy. I reckon in the States it would turn violent quickly.

I'll agree with that, for the most part.  I think the first line of "defense" in such cases, though, is going to be the "loss prevention" people that businesses keep on staff, as those folks are generally the ones who grab shoplifters, etc., and take them to the business office to await the police.  If things go beyond that, yeah, absolutely, I would expect law enforcement to be the next realistic step, but if things really escalated to where everybody who didn't want to follow a store's policy was getting violent, I'd absolutely support and understand them going for some sort of private security.  Living toward the center of redneck hell, I doubt such a thing would happen around here, at least not until things looked like they do in "The Book of Eli," and security would then only be there to protect the interests/property of the merchant rather than keep things safe for their customer base.

17 hours ago, fcgamer said:

@darkchylde28I appreciate your detailed response, and I agree with most of it.

What I'm really curious though, is what we should be doing on an international level? Some places have quarantine policies, some don't, some places let people in for travel, some don't. In my case, my parents and brother can't even come visit me, yet people with less ties to the island than me (i.e. Taiwanense face, yet resided abroad for decades, or born abroad) can enter freely.

I mean, supply chains and stuff are still f'ed, we can't even send parcels to England unless it's shipped via private courier! South America, similar situation,many parts of Africa, Canada only ems is available...

Something's gotta give, sooner rather than later. That's what I'm wondering about, if just accepting covid-19 and moving on isn't the best way forward, then what is? Never being able to send a parcel via regular post to England isn't reasonable, imo.

Honestly, the whole mail thing is beyond me.  They've shown that the virus doesn't live as long on paper as it does on other surfaces, so you would think that the vast majority of parcels, in addition to basic mail, would be unaffected, with restrictions realistically being on things that normally have some sort of international restriction on them--foods, animals, biological samples/products, etc.  I don't know if it ever came to pass, but while I was still working my old job, I heard about USPS and the private carriers working toward getting larger scale versions of the UV (or whatever) sanitizing lamps in order to run packages through that gauntlet while processing and more fully guarantee that everything passing from their hands into the recipients' was safe.  Beyond postal and carrier personnel passing the infection around among themselves, I don't know that I've ever seen or heard of a documented case of someone getting the virus due to getting a letter or package.  At the height of paranoia about it, most everyone was sanitizing their post and groceries as it came into the house, so I would imagine that would add another layer to it.

As far as supply chains, the only things I've heard of holding them up have been the huge backlogs at ports (which apparently sometimes gets better, and sometimes slips again), and then companies' ability to produce consistently, partially due to their raw materials/components not being present as well as staffing issues due to illness.  The whole myth that companies aren't producing because nobody wants to work is just that based on what I've read in depth and witnessed with my own eyes.  The only companies that truly can't get or keep staff tend to be the ones who don't treat or pay their employees properly to begin with.  The others that have been hiring like mad have simply been doing so because their business expanded rapidly and they needed additional hands on deck in order to cope with the increased demand for their product/service.

I hate to use the word, but I have to wonder if some of the postal restrictions aren't so much about preventing the spread at this point, but political, and designed as some sort of low level, easily deniable, unofficial sanction against countries who the policy creators disagree with regarding their handling of the whole mess.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

I hate to use the word, but I have to wonder if some of the postal restrictions aren't so much about preventing the spread at this point, but political, and designed as some sort of low level, easily deniable, unofficial sanction against countries who the policy creators disagree with regarding their handling of the whole mess.

From my understanding, it's about the amount of planes going to a region, for a similar reason I can send to the USA aside from Hawaii and possibly Alaska. 

[OptOut | 8,883]

We are currently in the midst of the largest ever spike in Coronavirus cases in Taiwan right now, there have been over a thousand cases per day for several days now, yesterday was over 2 thousand new cases, and God only knows what today will bring.

This new outbreak will definitely affect my business, if we get a case here in the school then we will have to close for a day to get everyone here tested, and that is EACH time we get a new case, so the chances are over the next two months (or more) we will be cancelling classes and holding impromptu online classes for the days that we have to close.

 

The bad news, other than my own significant potential loss of revenue and general loss of business momentum, is that from this position and without adequate measures to contain the spread of the virus, it is likely that the virus will now spread unchecked in Taiwan as it has done across the rest of the world for the last two years. This is especially worrying now that it seems that the omicron virus hits kids harder than previous variants have, and our children here in Taiwan remain unvaccinated.

However, we have at least managed to stave off a full outbreak long enough so that the majority of adults here in Taiwan have had 2-3 vaccinations, and that in general the omicron variant is less deadly and causes weaker symptoms that many other countries had to deal with.

 

My immediate hopes are that we can finish off getting everyone their third shots and get all our kids here vaccinated as soon as possible, and that people soon realise that the virus is just something we are going to have to live with here, and I can get my business back to normal. 

[fcgamer | 4,721]

I'm very angry with the central health agency by now. What we have is a situation where they handled the covid 19 situation too well initially.

There was a small uptick of cases around the end of March, right before a four-day weekend. Rather than cancelling the holiday or encouraging people to stay at home, the government did nothing at all, and just decided to let covid flow .

Now, the thing is the Omnicom variant of the virus may be more contagious, but it is by far much less dangerous. My doctor friend even asked why I wasn't in church last weekend for Easter, and he said I shouldn't be concerned, it's not serious for most people, i.e. now it's just like a flu.

The problem though, is Taiwan now wants to get back to a normal life, and the government is telling people that they should get boosted, and then just learn to live with the virus. So people are going out on weekends for fancy meals, traveling, shopping, etc. It sounds good, right, I mean people mostly aren't dying...

Well despite all of this, the government is still insisting that a school shuts down if it gets a single case of covid-19. So everyone with kids is going up and down the island like no tomorrow, then one person gets covid-19, might even be asymptomatic or sniffles, and the whole school shuts down, with teachers and kids being placed into ten days of home quarentine. 

I mean WTF? So basically everyone can get things back to normal and live normal lives except for those in the teaching industry, who will take mental and financial hits again and again and again. 

It's truly nuts and it's the type of situation that honestly just makes me want to pack up and leave.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by fcgamer

[fcgamer | 4,721]

On a different note, I got my booster today. I tried to book it around Chinese New Year, but they wouldn't let me.

That's a whole other infuriating situation. The government last Friday said that all teachers had to get boosted by this Friday, as well as workers in a few other industries. I mean, thanks government for giving us such short notice for this requirement...

[OptOut | 8,883]

I'm not angry, I'm just a little confused and concerned.

The guidance is not very clear and doesn't make much sense. Covid is no longer being contained, so why shutdown the school in case of exposure? Send the kid home, quarantine known cases, I don't have a problem with that.

But to close the school for a day, only to reopen the next, doesn't seem effective in controlling the spread, and it's HIGHLY disruptive to ordinary business. At least last year, as rotten as it was to have to shut the school down entirely and go online, at LEAST it was actually an effective method of controlling the spread, and at LEAST it was a consistent situation we could adapt to.

This is the worst of both worlds because it allows basically unlimited spread AND it disrupts the business just as badly as if we had a full lockdown. I'd rather just send the sick kids home and keep the rest of us going as normal, seeing as it's spreading out of control now anyway.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

I'm not angry, I'm just a little confused and concerned.

The guidance is not very clear and doesn't make much sense. Covid is no longer being contained, so why shutdown the school in case of exposure? Send the kid home, quarantine known cases, I don't have a problem with that.

But to close the school for a day, only to reopen the next, doesn't seem effective in controlling the spread, and it's HIGHLY disruptive to ordinary business. At least last year, as rotten as it was to have to shut the school down entirely and go online, at LEAST it was actually an effective method of controlling the spread, and at LEAST it was a consistent situation we could adapt to.

This is the worst of both worlds because it allows basically unlimited spread AND it disrupts the business just as badly as if we had a full lockdown. I'd rather just send the sick kids home and keep the rest of us going as normal, seeing as it's spreading out of control now anyway.

Maybe in Changhua it's different, but from my understanding, this is what happens in Taichung:

For kindergartens and primary schools / buxibans, if a class has one person with the virus, that class all gets sent home for ten days quarentine, even gotta do a PCR test.

If two kids in the school (i.e. different classes) get it,the whole school shuts down for ten days, does quarentine, PCR test, etc.

Repeat, etc.

I wouldn't mind one day, but ten days a pop is gonna add up fast, especially when the government is encouraging it to spread by telling people just to get on with life.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

It's really sad, but most people aren't taking the precautions anymore either, then again they're not the ones affected as things continue to spread.

tldr Taiwan wants to have it's cake and eat it too, yet ultimately they just shat the bed, potentially screwing over tens of thousands of people.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

Aaaaaaannndd for one final bit to really put the draconian measures into perspective: up until the past week, if you tested positive for covid-19, you had to quarentine in a government quarentine hotel for 10-14 days, on your dime. It didn't matter if you were asymptomatic, sniffles, you were still going there. Have pets? Had to make arrangements for friends to take care of them (after your home was disinfected by strangers), or you could pay to have them thrown into a pet quarentine centre. Let's just say, someone likes big fat stacks of $$$