Can I get these Wata graded?

[OptOut | 8,881]

43 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Why would anyone care about the condition of a bootleg?

Contemporary bootlegs from back on the day are just as fascinating and rewarding to collect as regular games. Outside the USA and Japan, bootlegs were the way a lot of people first experienced the joy of gaming, and there is an incredible amount of history and unique and interesting items to discover.

[RH | 4,895]

4 hours ago, TDIRunner said:

 

 

 

 

... ... ...

[fcgamer | 4,719]

6 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Why would anyone care about the condition of a bootleg?

@OptOut gets it. 

I think this is a good example that may explain the significance of these carts, compared to official ones:

Recently it came to light that some official NES games were released in Poland. I showed my gamer friends from that region, and none of them knew about it. None. On the other hand, certain Pegasus carts and machines (Pegasus was a bootleg Famiclone in Poland) go for tons of money over there and are desired. So what about those official carts? Yeah it's fun for collectors like us, but most likely the only people actually playing those games were the elite. 

In all of these regions (I.e. Famicom regions outside of Japan), basically everyone collects and prefers the bootleg carts to the real ones, and some go for crazy amounts of money.

People want what they first played as a child, same reason many folks in the west prefer NES carts to Famicom carts.

With that out of the way, of course we want nice-looking minty products over crappy ones, I mean, who wouldn't? Why would that even change just because it's not a licensed product? That sentiment doesn't make sense.

[Brickman | 3,980]

5 hours ago, fcgamer said:

In all of these regions (I.e. Famicom regions outside of Japan), basically everyone collects and prefers the bootleg carts to the real ones, and some go for crazy amounts of money.

People want what they first played as a child, same reason many folks in the west prefer NES carts to Famicom carts.

With that out of the way, of course we want nice-looking minty products over crappy ones, I mean, who wouldn't? Why would that even change just because it's not a licensed product? That sentiment doesn't make sense.

Yep exactly this.

My wife is from South America and I showed her some NES carts and she didn’t care, got out the famicom and all of a sudden she wanted to play it and relive her childhood. She started showing me games she played as a kid and the majority were bootlegs.

I think some people forget that the collectors market doesn’t involve just US stuff. Most of the international stuff is even rarer too. Just doesn’t have the demand yet.

[Californication | 1,477]

5 hours ago, fcgamer said:

@OptOut gets it. 

I think this is a good example that may explain the significance of these carts, compared to official ones:

Recently it came to light that some official NES games were released in Poland. I showed my gamer friends from that region, and none of them knew about it. None. On the other hand, certain Pegasus carts and machines (Pegasus was a bootleg Famiclone in Poland) go for tons of money over there and are desired. So what about those official carts? Yeah it's fun for collectors like us, but most likely the only people actually playing those games were the elite. 

In all of these regions (I.e. Famicom regions outside of Japan), basically everyone collects and prefers the bootleg carts to the real ones, and some go for crazy amounts of money.

People want what they first played as a child, same reason many folks in the west prefer NES carts to Famicom carts.

With that out of the way, of course we want nice-looking minty products over crappy ones, I mean, who wouldn't? Why would that even change just because it's not a licensed product? That sentiment doesn't make sense.

When you say it like that it makes more sense. As Americans and collectors we have a different perspective and assign value on what is good/bad based on that parspective and it is really counter intuitive that repro's would be sought after. But when you consider other people's view and nostalgia it makes sense.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Californication

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

@OptOut gets it. 

I think this is a good example that may explain the significance of these carts, compared to official ones:

Recently it came to light that some official NES games were released in Poland. I showed my gamer friends from that region, and none of them knew about it. None. On the other hand, certain Pegasus carts and machines (Pegasus was a bootleg Famiclone in Poland) go for tons of money over there and are desired. So what about those official carts? Yeah it's fun for collectors like us, but most likely the only people actually playing those games were the elite. 

In all of these regions (I.e. Famicom regions outside of Japan), basically everyone collects and prefers the bootleg carts to the real ones, and some go for crazy amounts of money.

People want what they first played as a child, same reason many folks in the west prefer NES carts to Famicom carts.

With that out of the way, of course we want nice-looking minty products over crappy ones, I mean, who wouldn't? Why would that even change just because it's not a licensed product? That sentiment doesn't make sense.

The value in a licensed game is that it will never be made again. If Nintendo started printing more copies of Little Samson, the value of the existing cartridges would plummet.

So if I'm grading a copy of a bootleg game and the label is a little torn, I can just tear off the label and print out a new one......I mean, it's a bootleg anyway so the label is already fake. I don't understand how it can have any value when I can easily just make 5000 more copies if I feel like it.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

25 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

The value in a licensed game is that it will never be made again. If Nintendo started printing more copies of Little Samson, the value of the existing cartridges would plummet.

So if I'm grading a copy of a bootleg game and the label is a little torn, I can just tear off the label and print out a new one......I mean, it's a bootleg anyway so the label is already fake. I don't understand how it can have any value when I can easily just make 5000 more copies if I feel like it.

It wouldn't be authentic. 

I could tear off a Little Samson label and print a million more as well.

You get hung up on the license, well it's a known fact Konami had their bootleg games distributed in Taiwan, Russia, and other places.

To get hung up over legality is silly, the fact is the Whirlwind Manu guys, Kaiser , NTDEC, Bit, etc aren't producing these games anymore, making these just as out of print as a licensed product. So let's throw away any sort of preconceived, ignorant American snobbery on the issue.

 

On another note, another reason I'd argue that collecting these games is more fun than the originals is because there is going to be a difference in two points, namely:

1. What is in a full set

2. Actual rarity

For example, with contemporary Famicom bootlegs, Recca is what I'd consider uncommon. I've seen plenty in my time, but it's not super common either. Definitely much much more common than the Japanese Famicom version though.

Then something like those Keisan education games or Black Bass, those are incredibly hard to find in bootleg form, yet are easy and cheap to find in original Famicom format.

On Game Boy it's fun, Smurfs never was released in Asia , yet a bootleg small box version exists for this set. Same with Pocohontas, etc. Then some Japanese exclusives were surely never bootlegged back in the day, either. So a bootleg set will be an eclectic mix across all regions of the world.

With that being said, I'd take viewing that any day over viewing someone's official NES, SNES, GB, etc full sets, all shelved on the same shelfs bought from IKEA, all looking exactly the same, etc etc etc. What an utter snooze fest. Yawn.

 

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

On another note, another reason I'd argue that collecting these games is more fun than the originals is because there is going to be a difference in two points, namely:

1. What is in a full set

2. Actual rarity

For example, with contemporary Famicom bootlegs, Recca is what I'd consider uncommon. I've seen plenty in my time, but it's not super common either. Definitely much much more common than the Japanese Famicom version though.

Then something like those Keisan education games or Black Bass, those are incredibly hard to find in bootleg form, yet are easy and cheap to find in original Famicom format.

On Game Boy it's fun, Smurfs never was released in Asia , yet a bootleg small box version exists for this set. Same with Pocohontas, etc. Then some Japanese exclusives were surely never bootlegged back in the day, either. So a bootleg set will be an eclectic mix across all regions of the world.

With that being said, I'd take viewing that any day over viewing someone's official NES, SNES, GB, etc full sets, all shelved on the same shelfs bought from IKEA, all looking exactly the same, etc etc etc. What an utter snooze fest. Yawn.

Edit @Code Monkey : Take your own thread started for insurance purposes, for example. To me the most exciting bits are the homebrew and the bootlegs, everything else is just too common as a whole , and seen a million times. I don't mean to sound offensive when I say it, but it's just how I feel. 

[Brickman | 3,980]

For us international people it makes perfect sense because bootlegs, clone consoles, different regions mixed in with other regions etc. is just a normal way we grew up. 

I find what @fcgamerand @OptOutare talking about very relatable and interesting but struggle to understand a sticker seal Mario for example. 

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

It wouldn't be authentic. 

I could tear off a Little Samson label and print a million more as well.

You get hung up on the license, well it's a known fact Konami had their bootleg games distributed in Taiwan, Russia, and other places.

To get hung up over legality is silly, the fact is the Whirlwind Manu guys, Kaiser , NTDEC, Bit, etc aren't producing these games anymore, making these just as out of print as a licensed product. So let's throw away any sort of preconceived, ignorant American snobbery on the issue.

 

On another note, another reason I'd argue that collecting these games is more fun than the originals is because there is going to be a difference in two points, namely:

1. What is in a full set

2. Actual rarity

For example, with contemporary Famicom bootlegs, Recca is what I'd consider uncommon. I've seen plenty in my time, but it's not super common either. Definitely much much more common than the Japanese Famicom version though.

Then something like those Keisan education games or Black Bass, those are incredibly hard to find in bootleg form, yet are easy and cheap to find in original Famicom format.

On Game Boy it's fun, Smurfs never was released in Asia , yet a bootleg small box version exists for this set. Same with Pocohontas, etc. Then some Japanese exclusives were surely never bootlegged back in the day, either. So a bootleg set will be an eclectic mix across all regions of the world.

With that being said, I'd take viewing that any day over viewing someone's official NES, SNES, GB, etc full sets, all shelved on the same shelfs bought from IKEA, all looking exactly the same, etc etc etc. What an utter snooze fest. Yawn.

 

Edit @Code Monkey : Take your own thread started for insurance purposes, for example. To me the most exciting bits are the homebrew and the bootlegs, everything else is just too common as a whole , and seen a million times. I don't mean to sound offensive when I say it, but it's just how I feel. 

I might be misunderstanding but were these bootlegs made by some random, unaffiliated company that did it without paying licensing fees?

[fcgamer | 4,719]

5 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I might be misunderstanding but were these bootlegs made by some random, unaffiliated company that did it without paying licensing fees?

Not sure how that's relevant or not towards something's value and / or collectorbility.

As I recall, you stated earlier that lhese games are not collectable as you can just rip off the label and print off a new one, then call it a day. But that would not be authentic or original to the product, would it? Similarly I could easily (or actually, easier) do the same with any licensed title

your argument honestly makes little sense to me at all.

[OptOut | 8,881]

7 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I might be misunderstanding but were these bootlegs made by some random, unaffiliated company that did it without paying licensing fees?

They weren't just made by "random" companies, there were specific, well known bootleg companies, each of which had their own styles of carts, artwork, and varying degrees of quality.

You're talking about bootlegs as if the modern cheap as hell repro trash you can find on Ali express or eBay are the same thing. They really aren't at all, the quality of some of the contemporary bootlegs would absolutely surprise you... 

A bootleg game isn't just a fake copy of a real game, it's its own thing with its own provenance. Yeah as @fcgamer said you could no more easily reproduce a Whirlwind Manu cart today as you could a Little Samson... Actually, even THAT is wrong, it would be EASIER to fake a Little Samson today because you could just buy a fake cart and box off eBay or Ali Express! It would actually be harder to fake a Whirlwind Manu cart, lol!

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Not sure how that's relevant or not towards something's value and / or collectorbility.

As I recall, you stated earlier that lhese games are not collectable as you can just rip off the label and print off a new one, then call it a day. But that would not be authentic or original to the product, would it? Similarly I could easily (or actually, easier) do the same with any licensed title

your argument honestly makes little sense to me at all.

If you're not going to answer me, I'll assume I got that right.

So some random person makes these bootlegs with no license affiliation at all but the value is only there if they don't print any more than currently exist. So now, 30 years later, if that same random person, or even any other random person, decide they're going to make more, all of a sudden the market is flooded and the value is gone. The new bootlegs aren't any different than the old bootlegs, they're all the same bootlegs. My argument is that these games can be devalued at any time if someone just makes more.

Also, regarding the label, if I tear off a Little Samson label and make a new one, there's a difference in the product. One label was from a licensed manufacturer, one is not. With the bootleg, my new label is exactly the same as the label I peeled off, they're both fake. Or I can swap the cartridges or flash the ROM on the chips, there's no limit to how I can change it and the product doesn't change at all. It's still a bootleg. A bootleg from one manufacturer is as exactly worthless as a bootleg from another manufacturer.

So my point in the end of all of this is that Little Samson is not worth anything unless there's a high level of confidence that the original manufacturer will not be making more licensed copies. We currently have that confidence with NES cartridges but with a bootleg, you have zero confidence, that manufacturer could just decide to make a million more. Or someone else can.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

@Code Monkey You do realise we are talking about bootlegs manufactured in the late 80s and early 90s by companies that by now are all defunct, right?

[OptOut | 8,881]

27 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Uninformed nonsense.

Look dude, we already explained it. The contemporary bootlegs for back in the day are a WORLD of difference from the modern repros being churned out of China.

They're made with unique art, unique modifications to the code, unique boards and shells. The production capacity for manufacturing these particular bootlegs is LONG GONE, nothing like them could be reproduced exactly today, you know NOTHING of what you're talking about.

Heck, some bootlegs even contain GENUINE Famicom chips, a good number of contemporary bootlegs were "4th shift" products, made in the exact same factories pumping out the real thing.

There's a whole world of fascinating history and information out there that you clearly are too stubborn to even consider.

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

4 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Look dude, we already explained it. The contemporary bootlegs for back in the day are a WORLD of difference from the modern repros being churned out of China.

They're made with unique art, unique modifications to the code, unique boards and shells. The production capacity for manufacturing these particular bootlegs is LONG GONE, nothing like them could be reproduced exactly today, you know NOTHING of what you're talking about.

Heck, some bootlegs even contain GENUINE Famicom chips, a good number of contemporary bootlegs were "4th shift" products, made in the exact same factories pumping out the real thing.

There's a whole world of fascinating history and information out there that you clearly are too stubborn to even consider.

See that's the problem, you haven't explained it and I don't feel like my point is getting through here. You're arguing that modern reproductions aren't of the same quality so they're not worth as much. That's not even close to my argument at all. What I'm saying is that it's an unlicensed bootleg, which is why it's worth nothing. It could be made of the finest materials in the world, it could be made of solid gold. Outside of any intrinsic value, the game is still worthless because it isn't licensed. It has nothing to do with the materials it contains, it has to do with licensing. 

Bootleg A: made in 1990, unlicensed, good materials.

Bootleg B: made yesterday by me, unlicensed, similar material quality

Both bootlegs are worth the exact same amount, they're both fake bootlegs, they have no value. The reason they have no value is because I could make 10,000 of them and all of a sudden the original bootlegs are worth nothing because the market is flooded. I cannot make 10,000 more Little Samson cartridges because I cannot fake the licensing, so that's why those have value.

Why do you think unlicensed Tengen cartridges are worth so little? Why are Bible Buffet boxes / manuals and Sunday Funday boxes / manuals worthless? It's because Tengen could easily just make more games today and they would be identical to the original but Taito could never get licensing to print more Little Samson cartridges, Nintendo would never allow it. And Wisdom Tree found literal cases of unfolded NES boxes and sold them by the thousands on their store recently. If a product is unlicensed, the manufacturer can make more any time they want to and the value is zero.

[OptOut | 8,881]

Well, thousands of collectors around the world, spending REAL money on exactly these "worthless" bootlegs would strongly disagree with you @Code Monkey.

As an aside, if these bootlegs truly are worthless, how about you go out and find one of these for the price of postage:

I'll wait.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

14 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I might be misunderstanding but were these bootlegs made by some random, unaffiliated company that did it without paying licensing fees?

Answered this before, but it's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

17 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

The value in a licensed game is that it will never be made again. If Nintendo started printing more copies of Little Samson, the value of the existing cartridges would plummet.

So if I'm grading a copy of a bootleg game and the label is a little torn, I can just tear off the label and print out a new one......I mean, it's a bootleg anyway so the label is already fake. I don't understand how it can have any value when I can easily just make 5000 more copies if I feel like it.

I think you are a bit confused, buddy, I'd gladly argue with you all night but it's my Friday night, I just cracked open a beer, and I'm about ready to eat a delicious supper as I call in the weekend.

Whether you like it or not, bootlegs the world over have a lot of value for various reasons, I'd honestly suggest you look into it a bit more.

Take Time Diver Eon Man, yeah the Taito game that got a full spread in Nintendo Power magazine, yet ultimately went unreleased. Well, the game did actually get released, in Taiwan. I personally believe Taito licensed it out to an unlicensed Taiwanense company, though it's also possible that the games code could have just been stolen. Edit there way, the game was released here, on a cartridge that was *not* licensed by Nintendo, yet the game went unreleased everywhere else in the world. I'd say that is significant.

Then there's Videomation, yeah that turd of a game was published in Taiwan and worldwide on Famicom, yet it wasn't licensed by Nintendo, though it was licensed by the developer. BTW, the game was licensed by Nintendo in the States.

So licensing means jack shit to be honest, it was just a way for Nintendo to flex their muscles and have more control over what software arrived on their machines. Same with how Nintendo of America forced companies to allow them to handle production, a situation quite unlike what happened in Japan.

 

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

You can mute people on here, just like NA. Try it out, it's nice not having people tell you how to collect.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

5 minutes ago, Ferris Bueller said:

You can mute people on here, just like NA. Try it out, it's nice not having people tell you how to collect.

I'd never do that, unless it came down to harassment or something. I don't mind a good debate, or discussion, no matter how silly it becomes.

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I'd never do that, unless it came down to harassment or something. I don't mind a good debate, or discussion, no matter how silly it becomes.

The day @fcgamer became more patient than me. Fucking 2020, everyone.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

4 minutes ago, Ferris Bueller said:

The day @fcgamer became more patient than me. Fucking 2020, everyone.

Yeah I know, it's scary

[B.A. | 1,139]

10 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Why do you think unlicensed Tengen cartridges are worth so little? Why are Bible Buffet boxes / manuals and Sunday Funday boxes / manuals worthless? It's because Tengen could easily just make more games today and they would be identical to the original but Taito could never get licensing to print more Little Samson cartridges, Nintendo would never allow it. And Wisdom Tree found literal cases of unfolded NES boxes and sold them by the thousands on their store recently. If a product is unlicensed, the manufacturer can make more any time they want to and the value is zero.

While your Bible Buffet and Sunday Funday examples sort of work it is because Wisdom Tree sold the rights to reprint the boxes and manuals, so you can't tell an original from one of the new ones.  The idea that the only games of value are the one's that Nintendo placed their arbitrary seal of approval on though is laughable.  Myriad 6 in 1 is nothing more than a sticker slapped on another unlicensed cart. Tengen Tetris is a $150 CIB. The Panesian games are all well north of $1000 cart only.  

You might not care for unlicensed, but they most certainly have value.  Both monetary and historical. 

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

5 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Then there's Videomation, yeah that turd of a game...

Aw hell no!  Videomation is not a game, it's a state of the art drawing and painting studio.

2020 VGS Videomation Grand Champ reprazent!

 

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

1 hour ago, B.A. said:

While your Bible Buffet and Sunday Funday examples sort of work it is because Wisdom Tree sold the rights to reprint the boxes and manuals, so you can't tell an original from one of the new ones.  The idea that the only games of value are the one's that Nintendo placed their arbitrary seal of approval on though is laughable.  Myriad 6 in 1 is nothing more than a sticker slapped on another unlicensed cart. Tengen Tetris is a $150 CIB. The Panesian games are all well north of $1000 cart only.  

You might not care for unlicensed, but they most certainly have value.  Both monetary and historical. 

I used Tengen games as examples because they have licensed versions. Panesian are different because they are the only copy of that game, there is no licensed version, so those have value in obscurity. My point is when a licensed version exists, a bootleg of that made 30 years ago is no more valuable than a bootleg made yesterday, they're both identical products.

I'd be totally willing to listen to how these 2 products are different but nobody has yet explained it. The only reasons we have gotten so far are:

• The materials are better than products today. So does that mean if I made a bootleg with better materials that it would be worth a whole lot of money? No, nobody would want a bootleg if I made it, no matter what it was made of.
• The bootlegs were made by specific companies no longer in business. Okay, so by your logic, if I incorporated a company today (I already have a few companies in my name so I could just use one of those), and made bootlegs of Little Samson, would those be worth anything in 30 years? No, nobody would care about a bootleg some guy with a no-name company made. 

What I'm saying is the only assignment of value in this case is from the assurance that more won't be printed. And nobody can stop me nor the original manufacturer of the bootleg from just making more so I'm confused how they can be valuable.

Though now that I think of your Panesian example, it may be transferable in this case. There's no current guarantee Panesian won't make more of their games and those hold a lot of value but maybe that's the reason I haven't purchased any. None of us know if they'll simply make more.