I don't consider unlicensed carts as NES games. What do you think?

[Tulpa | 3,492]

7 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

and the proof that this was actually released at retail is...?

It was documented in catalogs. It's showed up in random lots sold at garage sales, etc. The Official Nintendo Players Guide included it. Nintendo's official list of NES games included it. Tim Atwood at one time had three cases of six each, all sealed.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tulpa

[Link | 2,709]

5 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

In the case of Apple, though, a non-authorized case can still be an iPhone case, just not an official one.

...Does that differ from the topic at hand? Of non-authorized games being still NES games even if unofficial. 

Or since they’re not knockoffs of someone else’s product, they’re not bootleg. I think I have a wider definition of this word than yours. Back again to the established terms.

The question was mainly put to The Phleo anyway, as an alternative to “not real”. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Haha Tanooki, saying that SE is a special case that is "just well gray area, fuzzy" completely kills any and all credibility you may have had for making any arguments AT ALL related to the NES library.  SE was manufactured by Nintendo themselves and it was licensed... I mean, WTF!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This thread makes my brain hurt.  I feel like Will Farrell's character at the end of Zoolander when he's wondering why everyone thinks Ben Stiller's new BLUE STEEL look is so awesome when he can plainly see that it's the exact same old look.

Are first-party Atari 2600 games the only "real Atari games" ???  ... so like Activision, Imagic, Mattel, etc, and all the other 70% of the non-Atari sanctioned games in the library don't count?

Are first-party Coleco games the only "real Coleco games" ???

Are first-party Intellivision games the only "real Intellivision games" ???

...And on and on and on...

Seriously guys,   AM I ON CRAZY PILLS?

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by Dr. Morbis

[Tulpa | 3,492]

4 minutes ago, Link said:

...Does that differ from the topic at hand? Of non-authorized games being still NES games even if unofficial. 

Or since they’re not knockoffs of someone else’s product, they’re not bootleg. I think I have a wider definition of this word than yours. Back again to the established terms.

The question was mainly put to The Phleo anyway, as an alternative to “not real”. 

That's fair. I'm cool with the licensed/unlicensed NES distinction. Bootleg might have a semantics debate.

[Sumez | 2,941]

8 hours ago, Tulpa said:

But the chip didn't affect that. Unlicensed publishers got around it, and the chip was the reason for so many blinking light errors.

Outside of Tengen, the methods used to defeat the lockout chip were pretty terrible.

The chip itself is the cause of the blinking light, but not the error - that's just a dirty cartridge or loose connector. With a disabled lockout chip you'll just get a grey screen instead. The silly pushing down mechanism is a much bigger offender here.

  

5 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

Would a raspberry pi thrown into an NES cartridge that can run an SNES Rom natively on an NES count?

This is definitely a much more interesting argument, and one that's already been discussed a lot - and I think it's impossible to really reach a conclusion.

What you can say is whether a specific piece of software is "X/Y software". For example Super Mario Bros. 3 is NES software, it's written to run on the NES CPU, and works with the PPU also inside the NES to produce graphics resembling a video game. However, it also relies on the MMC3 hardware inside the cartridge to work, so it's also an MMC3 game. You could argue it's not a pure NES game like an NROM cartridge that works without any on-cart logic, but at least it's made to run on an NES, and historically a vast majority of NES games have these kinds of helpful circuits onboard.

Then going forward to the SNES a bunch of different co-processors became popular. The DSP was probably the most common, with SuperFX being more famous. At this point the game doesn't just rely on hardware in the cartridge, it actually has separate code written to run on this processor that only exists inside the cartridge. That specific piece of software isn't made for the SNES at all, but it co-operates with the game code that is created to run on the SNES.
You could easily make the argument that SuperFX games aren't purely SNES games, but at least the majority of the code running on them is still created very specifically for the SNES. It's really a bit of both.

Going one step further is your Raspberry Pi example. You put it in a cartridge, you insert the cartridge into an unmodified NES, and it works, running a game that you can play using your controller, and see on your TV. In that sense it's at the very least a genuine NES cartridge. Whether the game inside the cartridge is "an NES game" is less clear.
In my opinion it is not - because the game software being run is programmed and designed to be run on a Raspberry Pi, not an NES. The cartridge would still have a piece of genuine NES software on it, allowing the console to interface with the raspberry pi inside the cartridge, but that software isn't, by itself, a game.

You could compare this to the Super Game Boy. The Super Game Boy is definitely a SNES cartridge, but the Game Boy game you put into it isn't a SNES game* just because it's playable on a SNES.

But really, this is so subjective you could easily argue either way.

 

*) ...but then there's the example of Space Invaders which actually has a snes game built-in in a game boy cartridge

Edited January 13, 2020 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,941]

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Bootleg might have a semantics debate.

Within software, a bootleg is an unauthorized physical production of a product the manufacturer doesn't have the license to produce.
It's fairly well defined.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

5 hours ago, Sumez said:

Within software, a bootleg is an unauthorized physical production of a product the manufacturer doesn't have the license to produce.
It's fairly well defined.

Product as in new software or existing software?

[fcgamer | 4,722]

33 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Product as in new software or existing software?

The games we are referring to generally as unlicensed games would fall outside this definition of bootleg, since the manufacturers would indeed have a licence to produce their own software. 

Edit: people might try to argue otherwise, due to court cases relating to Nintendo and their licensing; however, take a situation with computers, PCs for example. No license necessary, then apply the aforementioned bootleg definition used for software. If we take the Nintendo licensing idea into account, then we need separate definitions of bootleg, as it would definitely not be able to be applied across the board to all software.

Edited January 13, 2020 by fcgamer

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Morbis you're an arrogant fool, but hey enjoy it.  I'm not even the one to start to pitch that idea, I just ran with it as it fit.  Yes Nintendo manufactured their games, they made some small amount, no dispute there, but they're the ones that revoked, reworked, and re-released it with a new name.  One thing is certain, that kind of commentary there is a contributing factor why I backed off stuff in the last few years.  People care more about the dollar value and prestige of X item and will guard that investment tooth and nail because the worst thing that can ever happen is that the tide changes.   Thank engineers for flash kits.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Tanooki

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

20 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Yes Nintendo manufactured their games, they made some small amount, no dispute there, but they're the ones that revoked, reworked, and re-released it with a new name.  One thing is certain, that kind of commentary there is a contributing factor why I backed off stuff in the last few years.  People care more about the dollar value and prestige of X item and will guard that investment tooth and nail because the worst thing that can ever happen is that the tide changes.   Thank engineers for flash kits.

Yeah, Nintendo also "reworked and re-released" Punch-Out with a new name, so I guess by your logic "Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!" doesn't count for a licensed set either.

Come on, man!  I don't own a CIB SE and probably never will (unless I win the lottery).  This isn't about protecing investments; it's about recording history for posterity - and getting it right.  To say that SE doesn't count is literally re-writing history erroneously.

1 - SE was manufactured by Nintendo.

2 - It was given a Seal of Quality by Nintendo.

3 - It was released to retail by Bandai

4 - It was purchased by North American consumers in North America.

I mean, WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?  Is that seriously not good enough for you?????

Edited January 14, 2020 by Dr. Morbis
spelling

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

On 1/13/2020 at 4:43 AM, Sumez said:

This is definitely a much more interesting argument, and one that's already been discussed a lot - and I think it's impossible to really reach a conclusion.

What you can say is whether a specific piece of software is "X/Y software". For example Super Mario Bros. 3 is NES software, it's written to run on the NES CPU, and works with the PPU also inside the NES to produce graphics resembling a video game. However, it also relies on the MMC3 hardware inside the cartridge to work, so it's also an MMC3 game. You could argue it's not a pure NES game like an NROM cartridge that works without any on-cart logic, but at least it's made to run on an NES, and historically a vast majority of NES games have these kinds of helpful circuits onboard.

I agree. Mario 3=Not an nes game. Glad we solved that problem.

[Sumez | 2,941]

[fcgamer | 4,722]

Wait wait...if games that use other mappers aren't nes games, I'd like to see a list of what a true nes full set would be. Is this some sort of ploy by Wata to get even more demand put in sticker seal black box games?

[JamesRobot | 5,795]

It's a Nintendo game if it plays on the Nintendo Entertainment System.  When I was a kid, that was all the criteria that existed.  There was no argument.  It was never even a question.

[Sumez | 2,941]

49 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

if it plays on the Nintendo Entertainment System

Well that's where our definition gets a little vague when you bring in the idea of a raspberry pi running inside a cartridge  

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

10 hours ago, Sumez said:

Well that's where our definition gets a little vague when you bring in the idea of a raspberry pi running inside a cartridge  

 

When I made that comment, I wasn't being completely serious. It's an extreme example dialed up to 11.

Throwing an RPi into an NES shell and having it work natively on an unmodified NES is a cool parlor trick, but that doesn't mean that Quake 3 is an NES game just because it works on an RPi. That being said, if you made a super intensive 3d game and ONLY sold it in an NES cartridge with an RPi and marketed it as an NES exclusive then the debate can be opened. But something like that hasn't happened yet.

Also, the real nail in the coffin is the boxes for unlicensed games typically all say "For play on the Nintendo Entertainment System"

Basically, the rules for "the list" are pretty simple until you get to extremities that require exemptions and workarounds.

1. Is the software compatible with a Nintendo Entertainment System?
2. Is the software intended to be released as a title for the Nintendo Entertainment System?
3. Is the software released within the marketable lifespan of the Nintendo Entertainment System?
4. Is the software authorized for release by Nintendo?

If you answered Yes to 1, 2, 3, and 4 then it's a Licensed NES game....if you said no to 4 but answered yes to the other three then it's an unlicensed title...even then there are exceptions (Sunday Funday, and Cheetahmen II come to mind, as well as Gaiapolis, Thunder Blaster Man, and Huge Insect)

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

16 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

 

When I made that comment, I wasn't being completely serious. It's an extreme example dialed up to 11.

Throwing an RPi into an NES shell and having it work natively on an unmodified NES is a cool parlor trick, but that doesn't mean that Quake 3 is an NES game just because it works on an RPi. That being said, if you made a super intensive 3d game and ONLY sold it in an NES cartridge with an RPi and marketed it as an NES exclusive then the debate can be opened. But something like that hasn't happened yet.

Also, the real nail in the coffin is the boxes for unlicensed games typically all say "For play on the Nintendo Entertainment System"

Basically, the rules for "the list" are pretty simple until you get to extremities that require exemptions and workarounds.

1. Is the software compatible with a Nintendo Entertainment System?
2. Is the software intended to be released as a title for the Nintendo Entertainment System?
3. Is the software released within the marketable lifespan of the Nintendo Entertainment System?
4. Is the software authorized for release by Nintendo?

If you answered Yes to 1, 2, 3, and 4 then it's a Licensed NES game....if you said no to 4 but answered yes to the other three then it's an unlicensed title...even then there are exceptions (Sunday Funday, and Cheetahmen II come to mind, as well as Gaiapolis, Thunder Blaster Man, and Huge Insect)

The distinction here is the difference between having a co-processor on a cartridge (Super FX chip, for instance, or the vaporware Hellraiser cart) versus having a full system in the cartridge and only using the console for video and control passthrough (Super Gameboy, Sega 32x, Gameboy Player, etc) .

[Sumez | 2,941]

Yeah, marketing is really irrelevant outside of the already-discussed licensing issue - which is its own world entirely.

Also WHOA! I had no idea there was an NES version of Gaiapolis! What the hell? It's a Sachen game of course (so not even licensed by Konami), and it looks like a notoriously shitty adaption - but wow!

Edited January 15, 2020 by Sumez

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

6 hours ago, Sumez said:

Yeah, marketing is really irrelevant outside of the already-discussed licensing issue - which is its own world entirely.

Also WHOA! I had no idea there was an NES version of Gaiapolis! What the hell? It's a Sachen game of course (so not even licensed by Konami), and it looks like a notoriously shitty adaption - but wow!

Yeah Sachen’s Gaiapolis more of a pirate original game (meaning they stole the IP but made 100% assets themselves)

They also stole Super Pang 1 & 2 in the same way.

Many, if not all of Sachens late games are basically blatant ripoffs at best, and complete IP theft in the worst cases.

Rocman X / Thunder Blaster Man = Mega Man (duh)

Gaiapolis = Gaiapolis 

Super Pang 1 & 2 = Super Pang

Jurassic Boy 2 = Sonic the Hedgehog

QBoy = Kirby

Street Heroes = Street Fighter

Silver Eagle = Metal Gear

Huge Insect = Galaga

 Rockball = Adventures of Lolo

The Great Wall = Tetris

Final Combat = Battle City

...not sure about PoPo Team, but it’s my second favorite Sachen game (Pang #1) and it’s too fun to NOT be an IP theft.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

Really, I think this discussion can be boiled down to the essence of it all depending on how anal you are with wordplay.  Are you looking at this as meaning a Nintendo game, ie: made or licensed by Nintendo, or a game meant for use with/play on the Nintendo Entertainment System (commonly, colloquially, referred to--correct or not--as "Nintendo games").  Both are technically correct, it just depends on which angle your argument is coming from.

14 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

Also, the real nail in the coffin is the boxes for unlicensed games typically all say "For play on the Nintendo Entertainment System"

I will put the "nail in the coffin" of this argument using direct quotes from Nintendo, regarding newer, but relevant products:

"The Nintendo Entertainment System controller is for use with the Nintendo Entertainment System - Nintendo Switch Online classic games on Nintendo Switch." (https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/41192/~/nes-controller-overview-%26-faq)

"Nintendo Switch Online members can purchase a 2-pack of wireless Nintendo Entertainment System controllers, for use with the Nintendo Entertainment System - Nintendo Switch Online games on Nintendo Switch." (https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/41193/~/help-with-your-nintendo-entertainment-system-controller-order)

"Nintendo Classic Mini: Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) Controller ... Designed for use with Nintendo Entertainment System: NES Classic Edition" (https://www.amazon.com/Nintendo-Classic-Mini-Entertainment-System-Controller/dp/B01IH5O186/)

etc., etc.

I'm at work with no access to my games, manuals, etc., but this type of verbiage was used back in the day, and regularly, by Nintendo themselves regarding officially licensed games, accessories, etc.  Here's a video of a ton of vintage commercials, timed to start right before Iron Sword (most definitely a licensed title, manufactured by Nintendo for Acclaim) announces it's available to be played "on your Nintendo Entertainment System."  (link)  That verbiage is just clarifying things for people (usually parents and grandparents, in those days) who might not be sure what all was required for folks to play those game.  Here's another example from the same video regarding Dr. Mario (first party title, inarguably a "Nintendo game" under either definition), telling people to play it "on Game Boy or N-E-S."  (link 2)  Finally, here it is again for Solar Jetman (another game licensed and manufactured by Nintendo), with that detail literally spelled out on the screen in text as "FOR NINTENDO ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEMS."  (link 3)  Unlicensed games tended to have that type of verbiage on it because they frequently published games for multiple systems and lacked the Nintendo Seal or the "Now you're playing with power" tagline that so many licensed games ended up with to ensure people knew what system they were meant for.

I'm amazed that this discussion/argument over semantics has made it this far, lol.