I don't consider unlicensed carts as NES games. What do you think?

[Tulpa | 3,491]

4 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

  And SE, that's a debate onto itself as it was pulled from the market license pulled and all because Nintendo pulled the trigger and scooped it for the power pad accessory of theirs they borrowed and rebranded too. 

Is there actually any hard evidence that Stadium Events was recalled? I know it's been theorized, but has anyone ever found anything from Bandai or Nintendo that conclusively says "pull this from the shelves"?

[Tanooki | 4,932]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Is there actually any hard evidence that Stadium Events was recalled? I know it's been theorized, but has anyone ever found anything from Bandai or Nintendo that conclusively says "pull this from the shelves"?

I read or was told something ages ago (I'm talking over a decade plus), but that's like a bad case of cover your butt he said she said tactics so I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.   This debate isn't anything new or watch hatched this decade let alone century either.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

5 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

I read or was told something ages ago (I'm talking over a decade plus), but that's like a bad case of cover your butt he said she said tactics so I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.   This debate isn't anything new or watch hatched this decade let alone century either.

I know that the debate has been going on for years, but it seems like one of those things that gets repeatedly told that people just accept it as fact. I know I did at one point.

As far as we know, Bandai may have just printed one small run and then quit, rather than recall it at Nintendo's order.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tulpa

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Yeah exactly.  I don't really even recall the story I got ages ago and I can't even recall if it was when I worked at MIdway for a couple years, from before that with friends who had worked in gaming with Digital Eclipse as I'd help test a few gameboy projects for free, or perhaps a bit later gba/ds era with the media.  I just know it was pre 2005 about as the when goes so between 1998-2005-ish.  Basically Nintendo was looking for something due to the whole picking on video games with kids being unhealthy and sitting on their asses gaming being fat and lazy and not playing outside.  Bandai had this family fitness mat and Nintendo went into to negotiate it to look like the good guys to get the mat and the software for it.  Bandai squeaked out a few as it wasn't nailed down yet, then Nintendo made the deal and kind of in a Tengen Tetris without the lawsuit type way pulled the product and whatever then (buried it, burned it, locked it away) happened with SE and the mat did and pop came WCTM and the Power Pad fully licensed and released by Nintendo.  The only proof it really hard up other than itself existed with a license for a time would be the original Official Nintendo Player's Guide which has a blurb on it in one little piece of a page as a game index item.  I know that gets tossed around to validate it but you just have ot look at the publish date of that guide vs the release date of WCTM and there's not much of a gap.  Perhaps Bandai got their first order minimum (10k isn't it?) out as Nintendo finalized the deal so a few got out there, a lot more went into the ether with the buy out.  Whatever the case is, the licensed and recognized product in the end was WCTM and Powerpad not Stadium Events and Family FItness Mat.  Those who have them they're a collectors wet dream because they were something before they rapidly weren't.

 

I'm doing a little digging now because I got curious. The ONPM came out in 1987, not sure of the month yet if that's possible but the wording is current not future tense on page 135.  SE came out Sept 1987, so the guide as written knowing the Sept date if it hadn't passed already.  Wikipedia claims August 1988 for WCTM but it's not cited and well that leaves it untrustworthy.  I think it's fair to say that SE was not on the market for 11 months.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tanooki

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

1 hour ago, Link said:

But are they NES games?

No.

They are games, and they operate on NES hardware. But only Nintendo (and authorized third party manufacturers like Acclaim) can make real NES games.

Also, @Tanooki Super Mario Bros / Duck Hunt / World Class Track Meet allows you to cross off 6 games off your list....if you just want a gaming set and not a collecting set.

- Itself (duh)

- Super Mario Bros.

- Duck Hunt

- World Class Track Meet

- Super Mario Bros / Duck Hunt

- Stadium Events

 

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Valid point there too I guess if you want to start labeling differing styles of set that makes sense for a gaming set.  You only need one copy of the game so multi-carts would be out.  That would also strike that V-Ball/NES World Cup(soccer) cart too.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

And DK Classics and the Sesame Street combo cart.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

26 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

No.

They are games, and they operate on NES hardware. But only Nintendo (and authorized third party manufacturers like Acclaim) can make real NES games.

A game that plays on the NES is an NES game.  

It isn't necessarily a LICENSED NES game, but it is still an NES game, and it looks ridiculous to argue otherwise.

[NESfiend | 1,515]

19 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

A game that plays on the NES is an NES game.  

It isn't necessarily a LICENSED NES game, but it is still an NES game, and it looks ridiculous to argue otherwise.

Which is exactly why Tengen eventually lost in court. You can try and distinguish them all you want, but they are games that were manufactured and sold in mass quantities to play on the NES. At the time it was happening, whether Nintendo had a right to charge those licensing fees was a legitimate legal question. One that was eventually decided in their favor, but after 10 years of production of and litigation. You can't change history. Those games were manufactured and sold all over the country to be played on the NES, legally. They are a put of any legitimate complete NES set. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by NESfiend

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

1 hour ago, arch_8ngel said:

A game that plays on the NES is an NES game.  

It isn't necessarily a LICENSED NES game, but it is still an NES game, and it looks ridiculous to argue otherwise.

Unlicensed games work by altering the way the system works. Heck, Racermate uses a hacked console.

If software needs to short circuit the system to work then its no longer “organic” so to speak.

Unlicensed games lack the proper paperwork, provenance, and physical hardware to call themselves authentic.

In the eyes of Yamauchi, they’re disgusting. In the eyes of the United States Supreme Court they’re illegal. And in the eyes of God they’re sacrilege (except Bible Adventures)

...

In all seriousness, I collect them because I love Unlicensed crap. I probably have the biggest heart for Sachen and I think I’m the only one advocating for their addition to the list.

But I can’t see calling something unofficial part of official lists Just because they made a lot of em.

Edited January 13, 2020 by ThePhleo

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

14 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Unlicensed games work by altering the way the system works. Heck, Racermate uses a hacked console.

If software needs to short circuit the system to work then its no longer “organic” so to speak.

Unlicensed games lack the proper paperwork, provenance, and physical hardware to call themselves authentic.

In the eyes of Yamauchi, they’re disgusting. In the eyes of the United States Supreme Court they’re illegal. And in the eyes of God they’re sacrilege (except Bible Adventures)

...

In all seriousness, I collect them because I love Unlicensed crap. I probably have the biggest heart for Sachen and I think I’m the only one advocating for their addition to the list.

But I can’t see calling something unofficial part of official lists Just because they made a lot of em.

Tengen games don't, and neither do current Homebrew.

They all use cloned CIC chips that match the behavior of the original lockout chips.

But that aside, if lockout/copy protection is the only thing being bypassed, it is a pretty silly distinction to say it isn't a game for the system.

You collect whatever you want to define as the set you are interested in, but saying unlicensed games aren't real games for the system is arbitrary and dumb. 

If the game can be put into an unmodified system and work, it is a game for the system.

 

 

And no, unlicensed games are not illegal, in general.

Tengen games, specifically, were using an illegal-at-the-time clone of the lockout chips.

But the design patent on those has lapsed, so it is legal for the current generation of homebrew.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

Point taken. I forgot that Tengen doesn’t zap the lockout. 

I guess it’s not really important in the long run but it’s fun to have these little debates once in a while to refresh.

Still, there are some wild extremes that push the limits. Would a raspberry pi thrown into an NES cartridge that can run an SNES Rom natively on an NES count? Because there’s a thing called “Reversed Emulation” now

[Link | 2,709]

Can they be bootleg NES games?

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

I probably have the biggest heart for Sachen and I think I’m the only one advocating for their addition to the list.

Dave might disagree.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

55 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Point taken. I forgot that Tengen doesn’t zap the lockout. 

 

You also have the piggyback games that use the bypass dongle.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

9 minutes ago, Link said:

Can they be bootleg NES games?

 

Bootleg to me means it's copying an already released game. The unlicensed were largely their own games.

[Link | 2,709]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Bootleg to me means it's copying an already released game. 

That’s true with designer clothing as well. But not with liquor. The definition is along the lines of ‘made or sold without authorization / registration / paying tax’ which fits the bill with the Seal of Quality imo.

I think there is already an established designation of “unlicensed”, with sub- or concurrent categories of “homebrew”, “hacks”, etc. I’d rather stick with that than reinventing the wheel to say “they’re not real” or other convoluted phrasing.

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

Wouldn't Stadium Events just be considered a prototype.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

8 minutes ago, Link said:

That’s true with designer clothing as well. But not with liquor. The definition is along the lines of ‘made or sold without authorization / registration / paying tax’ which fits the bill with the Seal of Quality imo.

 

I dunno, I'm hesitant to conflate Nintendo with a regulating entity, even if they did create the console that gives these games a reason to exist.

I'm fine with the unlicensed designation, with homebrew as a category for anything after the console is officially discontinued.

 

6 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

Wouldn't Stadium Events just be considered a prototype.

Hard to call it a prototype when it was available retail.

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

Companies release prototypes at retail all the time, just look at NBA Elite 11 or WWE2K20

 

[Tulpa | 3,491]

13 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

Companies release prototypes at retail all the time, just look at NBA Elite 11 or WWE2K20

 

What's the distinction from regular retail, then? Quantity? Time available?

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

In this case it'd be getting recalled and replaced with a later build.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

16 minutes ago, PineappleLawnchair said:

In this case it'd be getting recalled and replaced with a later build.

There was no hard evidence that it was ever recalled. That's solely a theory people concocted.

Every source I've seen of it online merely states it without providing any proof. No memos from Nintendo or Bandai, no named employees that can corroborate it. Howard Phillips doesn't believe it was recalled.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Tulpa

[Link | 2,709]

30 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I dunno, I'm hesitant to conflate Nintendo with a regulating entity, 

Not legislatively, but any goods or service provider can have a structure for recognition, or registration of items made to work with their product. Nintendo authorized SOQ games as much as much as an education program (such as SAE auto mechanics) gives certificates, or as much as Apple “officially” recognizes certain iPhone cases and chargers.

[Tulpa | 3,491]

In the case of Apple, though, a non-authorized case can still be an iPhone case, just not an official one.

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

25 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

There was no hard evidence that it was ever recalled. That's solely a theory people concocted.

Every source I've seen of it online merely states it without providing any proof. No memos from Nintendo or Bandai, no named employees that can corroborate it. Howard Phillips doesn't believe it was recalled.

and the proof that this was actually released at retail is...?