Music Debate 44: Gojira (and pick next week's artist)

[Reed Rothchild | 9,514]

24 minutes ago, MachineCode said:

Saw them open for Slipknot over the summer and they were pretty damn good.

Next: Alice In Chains

Already did AiC

[MachineCode | 159]

Sorry, never saw that thread but just now found the debates list so I can avoid that mishap again. I'll change mine to Bad Religion then.

[themisfit138 | 523]

3 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Incidentally, I thought Machine Head was insanely sharp and clear sounding when I saw them.

The venue and where you're standing are big wild cards for the mix too

They can use a PA system there is no excuse for poor audio mixing, besides lazyness. 

I saw Machine Head at the Great Western Forum. The Sword had a better sound at the same concert. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,514]

5 minutes ago, themisfit138 said:

They can use a PA system there is no excuse for poor audio mixing, besides lazyness. 

I saw Machine Head at the Great Western Forum. The Sword had a better sound at the same concert. 

See, I saw The Sword at a small venue and the mix wasn't so hot.  Protest the Hero and Battlecross were also large downgrades from other venues I had seen them in.  Lots of factors in play.

[MachineCode | 159]

26 minutes ago, themisfit138 said:

They can use a PA system there is no excuse for poor audio mixing, besides lazyness. 

While there IS no excuse for poor mixing, with live sound you are VERY much at the mercy of the room. For example, big boomy arena acoustics are horrible for loud heavy music. Renders much of it unintelligible. Why do you think studios put such an importance on acoustic treatment? How the reflecting sound interacts with the direct sound makes a massive difference. The phase relationship between the two create all sorts of peaks and nulls in the frequency spectrum that greatly vary the sound. The low end of the frequency spectrum is especially vulnerable due to the wavelengths being much longer than those of the mids and highs. A large portion of live venues, and especially big arenas that were designed around sporting events vs concerts, do NOT place a huge importance on acoustics and ensuring a flatter room response. Mid sized venues and select theaters are usually better for this sort of thing, but it always comes down to the individual place.

 

Something I tend to do is if I can't get general admission at a show, I try and sit right behind, or if that's not and option in front of, the mixing console as the show is being mixed from their perspective. This usually gets you the best sound.

Edited January 2, 2020 by MachineCode

[Abelardo | 154]

7 hours ago, RH said:

Next, Smashing Pumpkins.

I never heard of this band so I’m not voting either.

We have to do Smashing Pumpkins at some point and they were formerly my favorite band so I'll also vote to have them next week.

Not a fan of metal but I'm going to try to listen to Gojira tomorrow and vote.

[Hammerfestus | 3,832]

4 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

 

...also how does one like Ensiferum and hate Gojira.  That's gotta be 3-4 spread, max 

I really do not see how they are even kind of related musically.  That’s like comparing apples and tomatoes.  I guess both are technically fruit.  Admittedly I haven’t followed ensiferum in some time.  They’ve never released anything else as good as Iron.

[MuNKeY | 241]

4/10 mainly as I know who they are but not listened to much of their stuff.

 

Hrmm... hell do Korn not seen that one done yet. lmao

[themisfit138 | 523]

14 hours ago, MachineCode said:

While there IS no excuse for poor mixing, with live sound you are VERY much at the mercy of the room. For example, big boomy arena acoustics are horrible for loud heavy music. Renders much of it unintelligible. Why do you think studios put such an importance on acoustic treatment? How the reflecting sound interacts with the direct sound makes a massive difference. The phase relationship between the two create all sorts of peaks and nulls in the frequency spectrum that greatly vary the sound. The low end of the frequency spectrum is especially vulnerable due to the wavelengths being much longer than those of the mids and highs. A large portion of live venues, and especially big arenas that were designed around sporting events vs concerts, do NOT place a huge importance on acoustics and ensuring a flatter room response. Mid sized venues and select theaters are usually better for this sort of thing, but it always comes down to the individual place.

 

Something I tend to do is if I can't get general admission at a show, I try and sit right behind, or if that's not and option in front of, the mixing console as the show is being mixed from their perspective. This usually gets you the best sound.

These problems are compounded when the band tunes in B or A like a lot of modern metal does. Guitars are naturally upper mid focused so when you start tuning below D you start to lose note definition. This can be adjusted for through your amp(your presence knob is your friend), a good eq(be it in amp or through the loop), or a sound board. It seems to me like alot of modern metal bands just don’t care about good live tone. 

[guitarzombie | 924]

1 hour ago, themisfit138 said:

It seems to me like alot of modern metal bands just don’t care about good live tone. 

High Gain amps - EMGS - Noise Gates - MORE GAIN MORE GAIN MORE GAIN.  Ugh.

[JamesRobot | 5,790]

Pretty sure these guys are never on the radio but I'd change the station if they were.  Too metal for this pussy.

Next week: Parliament 

Edited January 3, 2020 by JamesRobot

[MachineCode | 159]

Only so much though. While a classic plexi tone may carry better, it's just not suitable for the genre. They need to use tones that actually sound like what they play, and that generally means a shitload of gain and a bit of a boost in the extremities with a dip in the middle. Can they compensate a little? Of course. In a boomy environment, the lows generally get a bit of a dip to help out. But you can only go so low before it stops chugging and sounds weak. Also presence is not a magic bullet, but rather usually a negative feedback line sent from the speaker side of the output transformer into one of the late driver stages that ends up creating an upper midrange boost. It can be helpful sure, but it can also be harsh as all fuck on many amps past a certain point and can make a tone thats very fatiguing to the ear, while still not really fixing the problems caused by bad acoustics.

Does tuning to B or A make it less intelligible. It absolutely can. Especially if they don't compensate by using thicker gauge strings and pickups that have an extended low range and all around don't know how to set up their rigs (making the guitars do what the bass should be doing, too much gain where it turns to fizz, etc.). But none of that means shit when faced with a horrible acoustic environment where you have 5 second decay times on the reflections and a frequency response plot that looks like mountains and valleys mixed with spikes. The only thing that would save that would be to remedy the issues in the room as you just can't fight physics. With the exception of tiny little box sized rooms, the larger the space, the more difficult that becomes. That's why, with a proper system, these kinds of bands sound infinitely better at big outdoor shows than arenas as arenas are quite possibly one of the worst environments you can get.

 

And @guitarzombie EMGs can be excellent in the right application. I would hate to have my single coil Strat pickups when trying to play death metal. Consequently, the standard hi output EMG humbuckers aren't really what I'd want in a blues context. But, they do make pickups for that sort of sound as well. Don't believe me, ask David Gilmour.

[RH | 4,898]

16 hours ago, Abelardo said:

We have to do Smashing Pumpkins at some point and they were formerly my favorite band so I'll also vote to have them next week.

Not a fan of metal but I'm going to try to listen to Gojira tomorrow and vote.

There stuff from the 90's in their heyday was the best rock stuff from that era, IMHO.  There current stuff (well, let's be honest, Billy's stuff under the name of Smashing Pumpkins) has still been good, but nothing like it was.  I really love this band and I wish/hope they see a good resurgence in interest from the younger crowd at some point.

[themisfit138 | 523]

@MachineCode I see what you are getting at. As a counter point I will add. That I have never seen a poor audio quality Dream Theater show at any size venue. DT play in the same low tunings as the other modern metal bands. Dream Theater puts effort into their live sounds and these other bands can too. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by themisfit138

[guitarzombie | 924]

1 hour ago, MachineCode said:

And @guitarzombie EMGs can be excellent in the right application. I would hate to have my single coil Strat pickups when trying to play death metal. Consequently, the standard hi output EMG humbuckers aren't really what I'd want in a blues context. But, they do make pickups for that sort of sound as well. Don't believe me, ask David Gilmour.

I dont need to ask David cuz he gets paid by them :P.  My point is people using WAY too much gain, compressing their signal and losing clarity.  If you're using a 5150 on the ultra gain channel, THEN using high output pickups, its just gonna sound like a mess.  We're talking about metal, not different styles of music.  IMO if you're using a noise gate, you're using too much gain.

[Abelardo | 154]

2 hours ago, RH said:

There stuff from the 90's in their heyday was the best rock stuff from that era, IMHO.  There current stuff (well, let's be honest, Billy's stuff under the name of Smashing Pumpkins) has still been good, but nothing like it was.  I really love this band and I wish/hope they see a good resurgence in interest from the younger crowd at some point.

Yes undoubtedly one of the most prominent rock bands during the 90s, as a fan I always felt that after the breakup things were never going to be the same, personally after Zeitgeist I gradually began to lose interest, I stuck with the old albums but then again I noticed I'd often skip some of their songs when they came up in my playlist so I began removing a few, then some more, then realized I was not a big fan anymore, that being said Siamese Dream has the potential to become an all time classic rock album.

[MachineCode | 159]

11 hours ago, themisfit138 said:

@MachineCode I see what you are getting at. As a counter point I will add. That I have never seen a poor audio quality Dream Theater show at any size venue. DT play in the same low tunings as the other modern metal bands. Dream Theater puts effort into their live sounds and these other bands can too. 

Dream Theatre is a different animal. They fall into the category of compensating for the low tunings by adjusting their gear differently. They are also not in the extreme metal genre but rather prog metal where you need a sound that's going to allow for articulation of more fine details. JP is also not using something like a 6505+ or an UberSchall with the knobs dimed (nor should anyone as that would just sound terrible.) but rather a Mesa Mark II C+ (now his signature JP2c which is a reissue with more flexible features but same circuit), the same amp Metallica was using for Puppets and Justice. I own a Quad Preamp based rig where CH1 is more or less that circuit and while it packs a lot of gain, it still remains quite articulate but doesn't quite get to modern extreme metal levels of gain like some of the aforementioned choices. It's an excellent sound, but it's different than what those genres use.

 

There are also a lot of variables to what makes a great live sound. Acoustics is a big one, but having a good consistent dedicated crew is another big one. A band like DT is going to always have their people and their setup with them, and scalable versions of that setup for different sized venues, whereas the opener or even a slightly lower tier band is going to be more at the mercy of the headliner or venue for that sort of thing and therefore not able to have everything completely optimized for them. More having to adapt to their situation vs creating the situation they truly need. Still doesn't negate the role of the surrounding environment.

 

An example I can cite of acoustics ruining the sound of a very professional act is Iron Maiden. Big legendary metal act, definitely not a super high gain type sound but still, needs that bottom end to sound heavy enough to work. They can afford the best of the best and always travel with a massive setup and crew. In many places they sound excellent. Came to the Wells Fargo Center in Philly the other year and the overwhelming consensus was that it sounded awful. Just a boomy, muddy mess. That arena is known for sounding terrible and just eating up all the intelligible frequency range while just accentuating the mud. To the point where even the mighty Iron Maiden and Co. couldn't tame the beast. In a place like that, the amount of filtering that would need to be done in order to not excite the shitty acoustics WRT to the low end would leave you with something that sounded like a bee in your ear coming from the line arrays. It would lose too much of what makes Maiden sound like Maiden. At the same time, if you go too far in boosting specific frequency ranges to the extreme to try and compensate for the room, you can easily end up with massive feedback concerns at the volumes they're playing with.

 

My point about venue acoustics was more to point out that certain sounds work in a greater number places and that it's not only the band and sound crew that are factors. Extreme metal is one that works in fewer places than most. A tighter and dryer acoustic environment would be more suitable for that style. Good luck getting that to happen in a large enclosed space. Yes adjustments can be made on the equipment end, but there's only so much that can be done before it no longer sounds like the genre is supposed to, for better or for worse. I say this from literally decades of experience at this point as a player, and on the other end working in recording engineering and live sound (more the recording end as that's what I preferred). I'd love to be able to always have a group play with what I would personally like, setup how I would like, but that just not right for every type of music. The tones coming from the band are as much a part of the genre it as the compositions are.

You are right though that many times musicians can be their own worst enemy and stubborn as mules. I've been there and dealt with that many many times. Most of them do not take the time to learn how stuff actually works and when told how to fix it by people who have, far too many dig in their heels and stonewall on the dumbest things out of a misguided belief that someone is going to change their sound to something they don't like. Sometimes it's also out of laziness. The words "it doesn't matter" and "that's good enough" as responses to notes are frequent with these types. I literally still have sessions on my hard drive from 10 years ago that didn't get finished from a band whose guitarist did exactly that to the point that when it started causing major problems in the mixing stage, the band wanted to stab him and the sessions were abandoned. But sometimes it is hard for a guitarist who's used to playing live with a bunch of gain and certain setup that seems to work for them to realize that on record, layering multiple lower gain tracks ends up sounding bigger and meaner than doing the same with higher gain. In the end, you do work for your client and there's only so much you can do to change their minds before you just have to let them lie in the shitty sounding bed they made.

[MachineCode | 159]

12 hours ago, guitarzombie said:

I dont need to ask David cuz he gets paid by them :P.  My point is people using WAY too much gain, compressing their signal and losing clarity.  If you're using a 5150 on the ultra gain channel, THEN using high output pickups, its just gonna sound like a mess.  We're talking about metal, not different styles of music.  IMO if you're using a noise gate, you're using too much gain.

You may not personally like it, and I personally do not, but for better or for worse that is a part of the sound of that genre. The EMGs are also not only used for high output, but for their frequency response. They they tend to filter out certain ranges that would end up getting to be too much too soon under high gain, while focusing others so that they are what's prominently hitting the first gain stage of the amp. This way, as the compression effect of saturation builds up, it evens out more while still retaining some articulation under more extreme conditions. There's a reason you don't see certain popular guitars and pickups all over that genre. A Strat or a Les Paul is still gonna sound like a Strat or Les Paul through a 5150, 6505, Diezel, insert other high gain monsters here, and not have what is necessary to get the type of sound needed for the genre. Les Paul will definitely get you closer than a Strat though. WRT the the noise gate, it's not only to tamp down the noise but also to have that quick cut to silence under palm muting to change the envelope of the sound, sharpening the transient to make it a bit punchier sounding.

 

Also, I've known people who had endorsements on gear. They don't normally pay you money directly like how Nike pays LeBron James, but rather you get free or heavily discounted gear and chances to have signature models tailored to your specifications. Hell Mesa Boogie doesn't even give free amps to their endorsees but rather something like half price. Most musician's who aren't completely starving to the point where they can't afford equipment or maintenance wouldn't be endorsing gear they didn't like enough to actually use from time to time as it would just get them a lot of free shit they don't like. That type of sellout behavior is more found when licensing your song to a Coke or car commercial as that is where the money is.

Edited January 4, 2020 by MachineCode

[guitarzombie | 924]

57 minutes ago, MachineCode said:

You may not personally like it, and I personally do not, but for better or for worse that is a part of the sound of that genre. The EMGs are also not only used for high output, but for their frequency response. They they tend to filter out certain ranges that would end up getting to be too much too soon under high gain, while focusing others so that they are what's prominently hitting the first gain stage of the amp. This way, as the compression effect of saturation builds up, it evens out more while still retaining some articulation under more extreme conditions. There's a reason you don't see certain popular guitars and pickups all over that genre. A Strat or a Les Paul is still gonna sound like a Strat or Les Paul through a 5150, 6505, Diezel, insert other high gain monsters here, and not have what is necessary to get the type of sound needed for the genre. Les Paul will definitely get you closer than a Strat though. WRT the the noise gate, it's not only to tamp down the noise but also to have that quick cut to silence under palm muting to change the envelope of the sound, sharpening the transient to make it a bit punchier sounding.

 

Also, I've known people who had endorsements on gear. They don't normally pay you money directly like how Nike pays LeBron James, but rather you get free or heavily discounted gear and chances to have signature models tailored to your specifications. Hell Mesa Boogie doesn't even give free amps to their endorsees but rather something like half price. Most musician's who aren't completely starving to the point where they can't afford equipment or maintenance wouldn't be endorsing gear they didn't like enough to actually use from time to time as it would just get them a lot of free shit they don't like. That type of sellout behavior is more found when licensing your song to a Coke or car commercial as that is where the money is.

It is a part of that sound, and I dont like it :P.  The only real tech deathmetal band I like who's sound was really clear was Necrophagist.  They were also using a ton of gain and noise gates but it works.  I prefer bands more like Opeth (older Opeth really), who have a way more natural sound.  But most of that metal genre is exactly what you're saying and what I dont like.  I sold guitars for a while and putting EMGs in a cheap guitar is great because you're paying for the pickups, really.  Which is why all those cheap LTDs sounded great for what they were.  Also with noise gates if you want that quick cut to silence, learn to mute better :P.  Im old school.  I hate seeing hair ties and stuff like that.  To me, I see too much gain and not enough technique.  Im getting off on a tangent now so forget it.  

With endorsers you're right, but there are different tiers.  At the base level you have what you're talking about.  At a higher level they're paying you for advertising their gear.  Mesa Boogie is also a really weird company.  They didn't have them where I worked, but I think if you were an employee of a store that stocked them, you couldn't even buy one from them direct at a big discount.  I never played a Mesa I liked but I think i chose the wrong ones.  Haven't seen or played one in a long time.  Currently i'm using a Kemper and im using the Mark 4 model for my lead tone.  Plus I love Allan Holdsworth and IMO his best sound he ever had was using a Mesa in the late 80s early 90s.  

[MachineCode | 159]

Hey man, I'm with you. I really dislike that genre too. I much prefer thrash, prog, and traditional metal to the extreme, black, and death variants. It's more the vocals that I find off-putting, but sometimes its the guitar tones and the constant blast beats as well. Like you, I do prefer a more natural sound as well.

Gate: It's not only the speed of the cut but also the depth. With muting technique you can only go as quiet as the amp will go on the current settings without being played. The gate lowers that down to silence. Since the dynamic range of the rise from silence to peak is greater and vice versa on the cutoff, it's perceived as punchier.

You are right about Mesa and discounts. We sold em at a store I worked at for a few years and the best I could get was if the owner was willing to give it to me at or close to cost. Mesa was always kinda "the price is the price." How do you like that Kemper btw?

Also to keep on topic... Gojira!!!

[guitarzombie | 924]

7 minutes ago, MachineCode said:

Hey man, I'm with you. I really dislike that genre too. I much prefer thrash, prog, and traditional metal to the extreme, black, and death variants. It's more the vocals that I find off-putting, but sometimes its the guitar tones and the constant blast beats as well. Like you, I do prefer a more natural sound as well.

Gate: It's not only the speed of the cut but also the depth. With muting technique you can only go as quiet as the amp will go on the current settings without being played. The gate lowers that down to silence. Since the dynamic range of the rise from silence to peak is greater and vice versa on the cutoff, it's perceived as punchier.

You are right about Mesa and discounts. We sold em at a store I worked at for a few years and the best I could get was if the owner was willing to give it to me at or close to cost. Mesa was always kinda "the price is the price." How do you like that Kemper btw?

Also to keep on topic... Gojira!!!

I can keep it on topic, cuz I think Gojira has an excellent sound with just the right amount of gain! :D.  Its heavy and natural, and I can actually HEAR the notes and chords being played in real time.  I always wondered why in extreme metal bands they even bother to write anything because with all the gain and speed, you cant tell whats being played. 

 

I love my Kemper!  I was using 2 JSX heads and they both kinda crapped out just when a student of mine got it I tried it and was really impressed.  It not only sounded better than my JSX, but its also lighter and has so many things that are just bonuses.  I did have to test it in a live band situation and it totally held up.  Does it model a tube amp perfectly?  Like maybe 99.9%.  Its really supposed to be used to replicate a MIC'ed GTR cab, but I turn cab sim off and it sounds freaking great to me.  It also has all the flaws, hum and buzz a real amp will give you which I like.  I stopped caring about tube vs digital because the people who get wrapped up in it to me, I never felt were real players.  Too busy arguing with gear instead of practicing.  I didn't even realize for the last almost 20 years of Allan Holdsworth life he used a Yamaha MagicStomp (Modeled after the Yamaha DG amp series) for his distorted lead sound and NO ONE made a stink about his tone.  Its all in how you use it.

[Link | 2,709]

Voted 9. Love ‘em. Reed I think we talked about Gojira /SYL /Devin Townsend back on NA. 

Ensiferum is way up there for me. I just saw them on Nov 19 and it was excellent. But very close to this style so I agree it’s gotta get mixed up.

My suggestions are AC/DC and Aerosmith. Most people I know don’t like them. But I really do, and so do some people I respect a lot. I’ve got musicians on both sides of that. So I think they could be interesting polls with divergent opinions. 

[themisfit138 | 523]

@MachineCode JP has used Mesa Mark IIC++, Mark IIC+, JP2C, Mark IV, and Quad Preamp(on Images and Words) and Duel Rectos. I know my vintage Mesas I own most of them. 

I am not a fan of the Diesel, 5150, Krank, mush tone. I shoot for the JP/Puppets or Justice/Garage Days tone depending on which amp I am using. I also have a modded JCM 800 for more of that classic thrash sound. The 80s model EMG 81 has less gain than a modern EMG and works much better with these high gain amps. The cream, tan potted and hardwired black potted EMGs have a similar tone to a Gibson Dirty Fingers.  

Edited January 4, 2020 by themisfit138

[MachineCode | 159]

I see we have similar taste in amps and tones. I don't like those Ultra Gain ridiculous tones either, or even that style of music for the most part. I'm always shooting for Justice/Puppets style, thus the Quad. Got it for $350 back in 2012 and love it. Sadly I gotta send it out to Mesa for a little love as it's doing this odd thing where the volume and low end fluctuates intermittently while playing and after opening it and testing some components I decided I didn't want to spend like 2 straight months trying to reverse engineer that complex beast. She shall chug again though. Which of your vintage Mesas do you like best? I personally love 2C+s but I feel like the 3 is really slept on.

[Skorp | 383]

I just love how this thread turned into something bigger.