Wata marking CIBs with mismatched parts with a big, fat IMP grade to designate the garbage they are

[austin532 | 467]

47 minutes ago, Startyde said:

Wouldn't you have the same satisfaction of knowing you had the right inserts if you kept it sealed? While not the same exact case, this pseudo scenario is the reason I hate CIB grading, because it encourages the destruction of sealed games if the owner thinks they can eek out a better CIB grade. They're basically reducing the amount sealed product, and helping erase history over a number.

It's the reason UKG and I believe even VGA have done away with loose figure grading, because people were destroying vintage carded figures with wear to get a better MINT loose grade.

Well, I'm a CIB collector at heart and have been for about 20 years now so I guess that's why I open them if they are cheap enough. I know some people may disapprove of what I do but it's something I enjoy doing. I can get extremely picky sometimes and more times then not I find that mint CIB games can go for around the same price as a sealed one.

Are people opening sealed games just so they can get a high CIB grade?

[Lincoln | 230]

2 hours ago, Alder said:

So are they grading based on game functionality as well? On one hand, I would hope so.. but on the other, that may scratch the pins.

Which leads me to question sealed game collecting and battery leakage. Is it possible for batteries inside of cartridges to corrode and ruin the game while still being sealed? I assume it would, but I've never seen it happen. Maybe in another 30 years? I'd rather have a pristine, protected CIB copy of a game with a replacement battery (or the battery removed) than a sealed copy that's eternally bricked. If I had to pick one to send into the future for the sake of preservation and archival, I'd pick CIB. 

It's possible but rare. I think I've opened one cart that might have been a leaky battery and it might have been exposed to liquid, idk. Everything else was fine enough and a new battery would been minimal work. 

[Startyde | 175]

7 hours ago, austin532 said:

Are people opening sealed games just so they can get a high CIB grade?

It's definitely a factor in some cases. Ppl can see damaged wrap as a flaw, so why have a mediocre 6.5 sealed game when you could have a gem 9.0 CIB. The madness of the Wata sales will likely exaserbate this. 

I have nothing against collecting naturally CIB games (except as others have said, there is no universal knowledge of all contents) but there is only one tried and true way to get pristine CIB and that is to destroy sealed, so eliminating CIB grading would hinder this mindset.

[jonebone | 1,307]

42 minutes ago, Startyde said:

It's definitely a factor in some cases. Ppl can see damaged wrap as a flaw, so why have a mediocre 6.5 sealed game when you could have a gem 9.0 CIB. The madness of the Wata sales will likely exaserbate this. 

I have nothing against collecting naturally CIB games (except as others have said, there is no universal knowledge of all contents) but there is only one tried and true way to get pristine CIB and that is to destroy sealed, so eliminating CIB grading would hinder this mindset.

The moves wouldn't be that drastic.  If the game was a 6.5 Sealed game (with likely a C to B wrap if someone really were truly considering removing it), then you know the box is already 6.5 by default.  That's 50% of the CIB weighing.

I find that 9.4 internals is about the most you should realistically expect.  Same way if you buy a "MINT!" sealed game on eBay you don't expect VGA 100 or Wata 10.0 / A++.  Sure, you may get lucky and get 9.6 or 9.8 internals but those would be quite rare and insides of a game aren't guaranteed perfect.

6.5 * 50% + 9.4 * 30% + 9.4 * 20% = 7.95 or 8.0.  So 6.5 Sealed to 8.0 CIB.

Even if you did assume perfect 10.0 internals (which wouldn't happen), the math changes to 8.25 weighted which would barely bump to 8.5.  

So I get the point, just the swings wouldn't be that wild. 

[Startyde | 175]

2 minutes ago, jonebone said:

The moves wouldn't be that drastic.  If the game was a 6.5 Sealed game (with likely a C to B wrap if someone really were truly considering removing it), then you know the box is already 6.5 by default.  That's 50% of the CIB weighing.

I find that 9.4 internals is about the most you should realistically expect.  Same way if you buy a "MINT!" sealed game on eBay you don't expect VGA 100 or Wata 10.0 / A++.  Sure, you may get lucky and get 9.6 or 9.8 internals but those would be quite rare and insides of a game aren't guaranteed perfect.

6.5 * 50% + 9.4 * 30% + 9.4 * 20% = 7.95 or 8.0.  So 6.5 Sealed to 8.0 CIB.

Even if you did assume perfect 10.0 internals (which wouldn't happen), the math changes to 8.25 weighted which would barely bump to 8.5.  

So I get the point, just the swings wouldn't be that wild. 

 

This is all fair, I still view things from a VGA lens where the wrap is more heavily weighted, hense my initial concerns with Q grades. 

[MiamiSlice | 3,089]

double post, whoops

Edited November 26, 2019 by MiamiSlice

[MiamiSlice | 3,089]

9 hours ago, Alder said:

Which leads me to question sealed game collecting and battery leakage. Is it possible for batteries inside of cartridges to corrode and ruin the game while still being sealed? I assume it would, but I've never seen it happen. Maybe in another 30 years? I'd rather have a pristine, protected CIB copy of a game with a replacement battery (or the battery removed) than a sealed copy that's eternally bricked. If I had to pick one to send into the future for the sake of preservation and archival, I'd pick CIB. 

I think battery leakage can happen regardless of whether they are hermetically sealed or not. Batteries leak as a natural byproduct of discharging, and even a battery that is not connected will self-discharge over time, but the batteries inside of a cartridge *are* connected and are therefore more likely to leak. It depends on the battery though, some are more likely to leak than others, and the button cell batteries inside of NES carts seem to be less inclined to leak than say, AA batteries. Heat is far more likely to cause battery leakage, which is why they should be stored at room temp, or if you really want them to last longer, then at colder temps. But my slightly educated guess is that the box / slab being sealed doesn't change anything. 

The nice thing about sealed games is that the cartridge, disc, etc could be totally ravaged by time, completely useless, and no one will ever have to know. 

Edit: since I brought up discs, I think discs are better preserved when hermetically sealed though that's my best guess, I'm not an expert on disc rot. Also with cartridges, the metal being exposed to oxidation is what causes them to rust, and I think if they are hermetically sealed then that would be less likely as well. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by MiamiSlice
one more thing

[austin532 | 467]

6 hours ago, jonebone said:

I find that 9.4 internals is about the most you should realistically expect.  Same way if you buy a "MINT!" sealed game on eBay you don't expect VGA 100 or Wata 10.0 / A++.  Sure, you may get lucky and get 9.6 or 9.8 internals but those would be quite rare and insides of a game aren't guaranteed perfect.

This is true. Out of the sealed games I've opened so far, some of them had a very light scuff on the label from being shifted around in the box for 30 years. It's also common for the end label to start lifting or one of the inserts having a flaw so finding perfect inserts in not possible.

[Nugfish | 652]

Grading CIB sounds like a much larger task than just sealed, which would make me a bit skeptical with fears of VGA-like grading.

Does the plate list all the contents with their individual grades? i.e. manual, sleeve, insert a, insert b, warranty card, map, plastic bag, etc...

[austin532 | 467]

I doubt it. It's probably just the Box, Instructions, and Game so you are not getting a true grade IMO. Whenever I've sold CIB games in the past I would always give everything it came with a grade and then find the average.

[0xDEAFC0DE | 1,277]

https://www.watagames.com/learn/blog/post/gsi-psi-what-am-i/

TL;DR: It does list all the inserts with their respective grades (see below), but they do not include the sleeve, plastic bag, or styrofoam. This does not contribute to the overall grade. If the insert doesn't match the contents, they send it back separately.

[DefaultGen | 5,394]

1 hour ago, austin532 said:

I doubt it. It's probably just the Box, Instructions, and Game so you are not getting a true grade IMO. Whenever I've sold CIB games in the past I would always give everything it came with a grade and then find the average.

It doesn’t list things like Nintendo Power and Whoa! inserts, only inserts unique to a game. Based on how haphazard and careless the people who sent in most early CIB games are, I’d estimate the vast, vast majority of graded CIBs are missing nonessential inserts. I’ve even seen it encouraged to send in games missing posters because it doesn’t detract from the grade, so who cares?

A CIB game with pics beats a Wata mystery box 10 of out 10 times, unless you’re grading your 100% complete game for your own enjoyment.

I think their QR code thing might list all components once the app is out, although again unless you have pics I’m taking the ungraded one so I can see condition too.

Edited November 27, 2019 by DefaultGen

[jonebone | 1,307]

10 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

It doesn’t list things like Nintendo Power and Whoa! inserts, only inserts unique to a game. Based on how haphazard and careless the people who sent in most early CIB games are, I’d estimate the vast, vast majority of graded CIBs are missing nonessential inserts. I’ve even seen it encouraged to send in games missing posters because it doesn’t detract from the grade, so who cares?

A CIB game with pics beats a Wata mystery box 10 of out 10 times, unless you’re grading your 100% complete game for your own enjoyment.

I think their QR code thing might list all components once the app is out, although again unless you have pics I’m taking the ungraded one so I can see condition too.

Eh... too early to tell.  The 5 CIBS I've graded all had the full assortment of inserts though I know I'm one of the more picky types.  Though yes, if you are looking at 5.0 - 7.0 games I bet they're missing inserts.  High end grades are probably more likely to be fully complete, but pure speculation either way.

Wata does send you the front / back pre grading photos that you can save to your personal files.  If I were selling a graded CIB I include the pre grading photos for that exact reason, so buyer can see what they are buying.

Supposedly the matrix will fix a lot of these issues but the TBD date on it is still up in the air of course.  I'm sure it is coming at some point, but the date is unconfirmed.

Last but not least, game specific posters are noted on the label so you can figure that out from viewing photos.  That was directly in line with my comment about the Aero Fighters SNES CIB in the Certified Link auction going low... it was noted to have the GSI poster on the back of the label.  Sure you didn't know about dust sleeves / generic inserts but you knew about the one that mattered. 

[jonebone | 1,307]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:29 PM, Calan87 said:

super glad they're doing this. still don't like they grade CIBs but I guess this helps. 

 

On 11/21/2019 at 5:30 PM, Startyde said:

Excellent. Next up, get rid of CIB entirely

 

On 11/23/2019 at 10:21 PM, DoctorEncore said:

Serious question for you or whoever has an opinion: What is the point of grading CIB items? Am I to believe that there are CIB collectors out there who would commit to all the time, effort, and cost it takes to get these items, yet still need someone else to verify the contents? Or are people just literally paying because they want to have their items wrapped in acrylic? Isn't the point of CIB collecting to be able to open the box, look at the inserts, and have the option to play the game?

Obviously there must be a market since Wata is offering the service and people are paying, but it feels like CIB grading is purely for resellers. I don't even trust that they have a comprehensive database to correctly verify the contents of the innumerable variants that exist for just the NES, much less other systems.

I'm over hear my scratching my head as to why any collector would support this.

I also consider myself a primarily CIB collector and will admit that I didn't really like the concept of CIB grading at first.  It's grown on me a bit but I can definitely relate to this mentality.

For me, the whole allure and concept of CIB collecting is to collect the game complete as it came from factory yet still be opened and playable.  Granted I don't play much retro at all these days, but that's what got me into the hobby.  Collect CIBs in as nice of condition as possible yet still be able to play anything I owned.  Win-win.

So, the concept of slabbing / grading a CIB that would render it no longer playable made no sense to me. In these cases I would buy a Sealed copy for collecting and then keep the CIB playable copy... even though once again, I have a NES classic / a Playchoice and really don't play original NES hardware much at all anymore.  There's plenty of ways to play besides opening the CIB.

Yet a sealed version of the game either may not exist, be incredibly rare or be insanely expensive depending on title.  In those cases, I understand grading the CIB as it is the next best thing at a fraction of the cost.  

I also like CIB grading on something that is extremely Mint.  If you collect CIB then you know what I mean.  The ones where you try to open the box flap and it almost feels as if you are damaging the box because the hinge is so tight and probably was opened once or twice.  Or one when all of the insides are pristine and nicely packed, clearly barely played if at all.  You can describe that as "Mint" to someone, but that would be an injustice since that word is so abused and watered down.  I don't mind grading a CIB in that condition.

Cliffs:
CIB grading is an acquired taste and makes the most sense in key instances.  It has a spot in the hobby but fully understand it isn't for everyone. 

[austin532 | 467]

5 hours ago, jonebone said:

I also like CIB grading on something that is extremely Mint.  If you collect CIB then you know what I mean.  The ones where you try to open the box flap and it almost feels as if you are damaging the box because the hinge is so tight and probably was opened once or twice.

I do know what you mean. It requires carefully opening them with a knife or spudger from the sides so that you don't crease the center flap. That's a big pet peeve of mine when people do that. Or when people open SNES boxes on the left side when it's clearly marked on the right...

[peg | 370]

Grading CIB makes zero fucking sense, why not just grade the box itself and leave it at that?  The contents aren't displayed so what is the point of grading them?  Grading video games is just fucking goofy anyway you want to look at it, but putting grades on things that can't even be seen is next level stupid.

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

3 hours ago, peg said:

Grading CIB makes zero fucking sense, why not just grade the box itself and leave it at that?  The contents aren't displayed so what is the point of grading them?  Grading video games is just fucking goofy anyway you want to look at it, but putting grades on things that can't even be seen is next level stupid.

Part of their early marketing was the ability to open up the case, so if you were wanting to buy a guaranteed authentic CIB that could then be opened for play or whatever, you could.

Beyond that I agree; pretty sure most of these guys would want a box that grades out nicer rather than caring about the overall grade on CIB.

[Bronty | 187]

On 11/27/2019 at 4:51 PM, peg said:

Grading CIB makes zero fucking sense, why not just grade the box itself and leave it at that?  The contents aren't displayed so what is the point of grading them?  Grading video games is just fucking goofy anyway you want to look at it, but putting grades on things that can't even be seen is next level stupid.

Always consider the extreme examples.    The guy buying a cib stadium events for 50k?   Damn straight he wants to know what condition the cart and manual are in.  

[stdgrabbag | 5]

sorry over looked something I originally posted.

Edited December 27, 2019 by stdgrabbag
missed information

[hyrulevyse | 151]

3 hours ago, stdgrabbag said:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Legend-of-Zelda-First-Print-Nintendo-Entertainment-System-1987-Rare/283716766558?epid=5733&hash=item420ed64b5e:g:utIAAOSwyaNd9TFp

So from what I am seeing it appears that this was never submitted with the map. I am assuming the map came with every copy. Is there not a way to tell if an item is complete?

It shows the map is in there.  On the back of the wata label in the 5th pic or whichever it says GSI: Legend of Zelda Map

 

[stdgrabbag | 5]

1 hour ago, hyrulevyse said:

It shows the map is in there.  On the back of the wata label in the 5th pic or whichever it says GSI: Legend of Zelda Map

 

Thanks I completely missed that.