Collectors and prototypes: have times changed much in your opinion?

[fcgamer | 4,721]

@Code Monkey : My situation was similar, though to make things even worse I was the middle link.

I was cruising around a tight-knit community I'm in due to some trades earlier involving Famicom stuff. I noticed someone in the group posted up a picture of recent finds, and there was what appeared to be a sample or prototype version of a very significant NES game. Although it was likely a pal version of the game, given the magnitude I felt it still necessary for someone to look at it closer.

So I messaged the guy, despite my links with the group being very, very thin, and told him he'd be advised not to sell the game until he knew what it was for sure, then also pointed him to the foundation and also threw out wata's name if he wanted to go that route.

Then a similar situation to what @Code Monkey experienced happened; communication at first, but it quickly turned into silence.

Considering this group is in a different country and is isolated from other collecting communities, the whole thing just looked dodgy I imagine from the cart owner's perspective, and similarly to Codemonkey, he was also willing to dump and distribute for free. 

So sorry guys, I just don't get it. I KNOW what being stupid busy is like, but this was just unbelievable.

[Tanooki | 4,931]

2 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Frank Cifaldi bid against me for some retro video game magazines on eBay. That bastard!!

Eh Fuhgeddaboudit, I'm sure he has.

 

fcgamer isn't blowing smoke.  I remember this conversation or conversations happening as I was aware at least of a bit of it at the time.  He had to remind me since this thread is blowing up all kind of weird, but it was over more than one occurrence this was just resulting in static.  Sadly at this point I think it's probably a lost cause as far as visibility or lack of goes, the bed...it has been shit in on that game.

[captmorgandrinker | 1,649]

So....why don't the few of you that think you can do better, start your own preservation society and show everyone how easy it is?   You've already got a guy supposedly sitting on enough prototypes to do it.

 

[a3quit4s | 4,096]

2 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

So....why don't the few of you that think you can do better, start your own preservation society and show everyone how easy it is?   You've already got a guy supposedly sitting on enough prototypes to do it.

 

Yeah but you wouldn’t have Kelsey Lewin on the team, co-owner of several pink gorilla game stores in the Seattle area. 

It’s like my only gripe with the whole project is sometimes it just feels like an advertisement to get people in the stores. It sort takes away from the mission and vision of the preservation effort imo

edit: that also isn’t a swipe at Kelsey; her knowledge and participation in the foundation speaks for itself

Edited April 20, 2023 by a3quit4s

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

3 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

So....why don't the few of you that think you can do better, start your own preservation society and show everyone how easy it is?   You've already got a guy supposedly sitting on enough prototypes to do it.

 

Even with my personal experiences, I don't believe I could do a better job than Frank is doing. It's still an invredible service though I would consider The Strong Museum in New York as an alternative for any hard copies.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

6 hours ago, captmorgandrinker said:

So....why don't the few of you that think you can do better, start your own preservation society and show everyone how easy it is?   You've already got a guy supposedly sitting on enough prototypes to do it.

 

We already have! Message me if you want a t-shirt. Next year I'll be able to quit my job due to freedom from the shackles of visa restrictions, then it goes full time. 

Edit: Another gripe is that his organization is too western -centric in terms of labels. I think we as a society should be far beyond knee-jerk biases.

Edited April 20, 2023 by fcgamer

[DeterioratingBrains | 6]

It is quite fascinating and daunting that Arcade collectors have understood the utter importance of dumping and documenting their games while quite some commercial games collectors, especially and nearly exclusively from NA~VGS, are oddballs and will go out of their way to defame, or prevent a dump to happen or be released.

Say you find an ancient historical artifact and you act like "this should not have been found" and you leave it there exposed to the elements. This is the exact equivalent to the "It wasn't meant to be played anyway" that I've seen here. Should not we value and save unique historical artifacts that have made it to us appropriately?

Anyway, in all cases I have seen over the years is infatuated egos of the collectors. Then they are utterly misearable when the prototype stops working and they're left with just plastic junk. We've seen it with Bugs Bunny BB and some collectors are experiencing that as of now; Forest of Illusion has stumbled on bitrot N64 prototypes a few months ago, for example.

As long as that stupid minset remain, that cycle will repeat again. Unfortunately, it seem to a common human behaviour, having to go through an absolute shitty situation and loosing everything to learn that their mindset was completly stupid, despite all the given warnings made by others.

Let's not even mention the gossips based on "I have a friend of friend that got ignored" when we don't get any of the in-depth context. Game History Org may be far from perfect, they have definitely shown they could get shit done. Can't say as much about some people on this forum.

Edited April 21, 2023 by DeterioratingBrains

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

2 hours ago, DeterioratingBrains said:

It is quite fascinating and daunting that Arcade collectors have understood the utter importance of dumping and documenting their games while quite some commercial games collectors, especially and nearly exclusively from NA~VGS, are oddballs and will go out of their way to defame, or prevent a dump to happen or be released.

Say you find an ancient historical artifact and you act like "this should not have been found" and you leave it there exposed to the elements. This is the exact equivalent to the "It wasn't meant to be played anyway" that I've seen here. Should not we value and save unique historical artifacts that have made it to us appropriately?

Anyway, in all cases I have seen over the years is infatuated egos of the collectors. Then they are utterly misearable when the prototype stops working and they're left with just plastic junk. We've seen it with Bugs Bunny BB and some collectors are experiencing that as of now; Forest of Illusion has stumbled on bitrot N64 prototypes a few months ago, for example.

As long as that stupid minset remain, that cycle will repeat again. Unfortunately, it seem to a common human behaviour, having to go through an absolute shitty situation and loosing everything to learn that their mindset was completly stupid, despite all the given warnings made by others.

Let's not even mention the gossips based on "I have a friend of friend that got ignored" when we don't get any of the in-depth context. Game History Org may be far from perfect, they have definitely shown they could get shit done. Can't say as much about some people on this forum.

I appreciate this post. Anyone who says that they care about preservation, but refused to release whatever rom in public obviously doesn’t actually care about actual preservation, just whatever their initial investment was.
 

I mean, I get it if you’re a greedy person that only cares about what you can flip stuff for, i personally would Rather they just be upfront about it instead of talking about a lame excuse of why “I couldn’t get a hold of this one guy” so that’s the end of the story.

 

you could easily dump something for under $40 nowadays, for “preservation”

[fcgamer | 4,721]

5 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I appreciate this post. Anyone who says that they care about preservation, but refused to release whatever rom in public obviously doesn’t actually care about actual preservation, just whatever their initial investment was.
 

I mean, I get it if you’re a greedy person that only cares about what you can flip stuff for, i personally would Rather they just be upfront about it instead of talking about a lame excuse of why “I couldn’t get a hold of this one guy” so that’s the end of the story.

 

you could easily dump something for under $40 nowadays, for “preservation”

I'm just curious, how many games have you dumped and preserved?

[DeterioratingBrains | 6]

7 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I appreciate this post. Anyone who says that they care about preservation, but refused to release whatever rom in public obviously doesn’t actually care about actual preservation, just whatever their initial investment was.

Most people don't even care if the ROM is released or not. Indeed there is a vocal minority that will beg for anything but the vast majority of people are simple beings and will be glad and move one if they know a unique cartridge is dumped and safe in a few hard drives around the world.

History has proven repeatedly that no prototype, not bit-identical to the retail version, has ever been devalued after being dumped. And even then, those most afraid of any decrease in value yet still open to dumps, made reproductions that they sold before releasing the ROMs and generally made hefty profits or solid paybacks.

So I really don't understand the histeria and the small talk about the hypothetical value based on a chain of 32 what-ifs and so on with the current market. If you don't do anything and just sit on it, then words are just worthless dusts in the wind of time.

Edited April 22, 2023 by DeterioratingBrains

[fcgamer | 4,721]

3 hours ago, DeterioratingBrains said:

History has proven repeatedly that no prototype, not bit-identical to the retail version, has ever been devalued after being dumped. And even then, those most afraid of any decrease in value yet still open to dumps, made reproductions that they sold before releasing the ROMs and generally made hefty profits or solid paybacks.

Sources? I don't believe that to be true at all.

[Tyree_Cooper | 750]

i'm glad when someone releases a prototype/demo/trial or anything particularly rare/expensive/unique, but i don't expect anybody to do it. there's a lot of self-entitlement in za warudo nowadays. see how people just walk into stores and steal stuff, or shout at companies because they don't like a game or a movie, like they own it.

(this is not directly related to the current discussion, i don't know any of these supposedly charitable organisations who help preserve game software/hardware, but sometimes people in there have their own personal interests, and they won't/can't admit it. so always be careful.)

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I'm just curious, how many games have you dumped and preserved?

 I don’t waste my money on prototypes, I leave the preserving to real foundations like https://gamehistory.org

 

 

[fcgamer | 4,721]

19 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

 I don’t waste my money on prototypes, I leave the preserving to real foundations like https://gamehistory.org

 

 

They often call on folks like you to help contribute money so that games can be preserved for historical sake. So basically you don't want to contribute towards preservation, yet are telling people how things should be done? Am I correct?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

They often call on folks like you to help contribute money so that games can be preserved for historical sake. So basically you don't want to contribute towards preservation, yet are telling people how things should be done? Am I correct?

I don’t recall you asking if I donated, am I correct? Feels like you are making nonsense up to start an argument. 
 

Just how many I personally dumped or preserved? The answer is: 0

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by MrWunderful

[fcgamer | 4,721]

28 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I don’t recall you asking if I donated, am I correct?

You said that you don't waste your money on prototypes. Donating to the preservation of prototypes would still be, to quote you, "wast[ing] [your] money on prototypes", no? 

I'm not looking to start any arguments, I just like transparency when discussing things. 

Edit: @MrWunderful : I've got a ROM on my computer for a currently "undumped" 8-bit Nintendo game. I put undumped in quotes because I dumped it but never released it. Give me an email addy I'll gladly send it to you.  You can then distribute as you see fit.

I like preservation. AND I put my money where my mouth is.

Edited April 22, 2023 by fcgamer

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

You said that you don't waste your money on prototypes. Donating to the preservation of prototypes would still be, to quote you, "wast[ing] [your] money on prototypes", no? 

I'm not looking to start any arguments, I just like transparency when discussing things. 

Donating to a 501 (c)3 foundation =\= buying prototypes. 
The foundation does more than just preserve prototypes.

I do see the mental gymnastics required to try and equate them in service of your trolling, however. 
 

 

[fcgamer | 4,721]

15 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I appreciate this post. Anyone who says that they care about preservation, but refused to release whatever rom in public obviously doesn’t actually care about actual preservation, just whatever their initial investment was.

I am highly concerned about your posts on this thread, Corey. I hope that we can clarify a few bits to clear up any misunderstandings, as otherwise it just ultimately tarnishes the preservation movement as a whole. How, you may ask? The following line paired with the above sentences ultimately present the preservation efforts in a bad light.

15 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

I mean, I get it if you’re a greedy person that only cares about what you can flip stuff for,

So your belief is that people who care about preservation yet don't release ROMs publicly are ultimately concerned about the price that items can be flipped for. Am I reading and interpreting this correctly? Also, @DeterioratingBrains , what are your thoughts on the matter? Surely if items are historically not devalued, as you claim, the sentence that MrWunderful typed regarding greed to get top dollar would be total nonsense, right? Please please, someone correct me if I am missing something here, as I certainly could be. 

15 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

i personally would Rather they just be upfront about it instead of talking about a lame excuse of why “I couldn’t get a hold of this one guy” so that’s the end of the story.

So by @DeterioratingBrains' admission, games aren't devalued by dumping, yet @MrWunderful claims games aren't dumped and released due to people being greedy. He then furthermore goes on to add that said folks make up excuses to justify the lack of getting the games dumped, despite the said party (I am guessing he is referring to @Code Monkey rather than my guy) being proactive and reaching out to get the games dumped and publicly distributed. What the f? 

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

I don’t waste my money on prototypes, I leave the preserving to real foundations like https://gamehistory.org

Right, we discussed this earlier, and I mentioned the donations that foundations such as the link above sometimes request, to aid with the purchasing of prototypes. I am a bit curious as to your use of "real" though, what other sort of game preservation foundations are there besides real ones? If there's something bogus, please also let me know, lest I inadvertently contribute $500 or $1000, i.e. a 1/4 or 1/2 of my monthly salary.  

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

I don’t recall you asking if I donated, am I correct?

Fair enough, glad I asked later and we cleared it up buddy.

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

Feels like you are making nonsense up to start an argument. 

Not at all, I just like transparency and clarity. As someone who has dumped and released numerous games and prototypes, despite living on a piss poor salary, I am always happy to see others who also make contributions...

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

Just how many I personally dumped or preserved? The answer is: 0

Or not. So why exactly are you calling people about for being greedy and only being concerned for $$$$$$ when you aren't fighting the good fight, contributing to the cause?

54 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Donating to a 501 (c)3 foundation =\= buying prototypes. 

Sure. Are you a contributor then? Which aspect(s) of the group are you most interested in, may I ask? The factors that make you contribute? Which aspects of preservation are most important to you? Just asking since I also started a foundation, and as such, this sort of data could be useful so that I know where to spend most of my resources. Thanks.

54 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

The foundation does more than just preserve prototypes.

Yup, that's right. Please see above, I'd like to know what aspects of the foundation you find to be the most important.

55 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I do see the mental gymnastics required to try and equate them in service of your trolling, however. 

No trolling at all good sir. I'm just honestly confused as you are giving conflicting information left, right, and center. Trying to sort it out, as I like clarity, especially when calling out people as being greedy and what not.

[fcgamer | 4,721]

On a different note, I am really excited that next year (2024) the TV Game Foundation Formosa has several (free) ROM releases in the bag, including an unreleased 8-bit NES / Famicom game.   It's been a bit slow on the draw one could say, but it hasn't been possible until next year due to legal restrictions. Stay tuned everyone!

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

@fcgamer Did you really spend a full 1/2 hour writing that? Pass on the Word salad. 
 

Whatever, dump them or not. Preserve them via sending to an organization, or throw them in a box and sell them for a million dollars in 10 years. I Hope everyone starts their own foundations, too.  Pretty small minority of people who actually care. 
 

Real foundations, are ones that get me a a write off on my Schedule A in my taxes when donated to, FYI
 

Anyways, This is exactly why I don’t deal with prototypes. Never really cared about minor differences in ROMs and the game history org is due for a donation in honor of all this nonsense so im gonna sega reference for I dip ✌ 

[fcgamer | 4,721]

21 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Did you really spend a full 1/2 hour writing that? Pass on the Word salad. 
 

Sorry that you can't read your own sentences, I guess. 

Next time you shouldn't be calling people greedy and telling people what to do or not with their games just for the sake of trolling. 

I'm just glad to be part of the team that actually does document and preserve games for future generations and historians. As such, I think I'm allowed the right to be critical of efforts of failed doings when needed. 

When you get some skin in the game, perhaps then people would take you a bit more seriously when referring to others as greedy and only being concerned about flipability; until then, you just come off as the troll that we all know you to be. 

Feel free to send me a DM though with an email address, I'm still more than happy to mail you one of the roms I've dumped yet haven't yet released ahead of time. You can even distribute it as you see fit, I don't mind, heck even take credit as the dumper. Why not?

 

[Ankos | 433]

4 hours ago, fcgamer said:

On a different note, I am really excited that next year (2024) the TV Game Foundation Formosa has several (free) ROM releases in the bag, including an unreleased 8-bit NES / Famicom game.   It's been a bit slow on the draw one could say, but it hasn't been possible until next year due to legal restrictions. Stay tuned everyone!

Does this include any Gameboy games?

[fcgamer | 4,721]

4 hours ago, Ankos said:

Does this include any Gameboy games?

Ohhh I didn't even think about GB, but I'll DM you about it later, anything that I've got that needs dumped, let's get that done too 

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

5 hours ago, Ankos said:

Does this include any Gameboy games?

I have multiple Gameboy prototypes as well. I think I have Paperboy, Jordan Vs. Bird and Mouse Trap.

These aren't dumped, I'll need to get something to do those.

[Tanooki | 4,931]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Ohhh I didn't even think about GB, but I'll DM you about it later, anything that I've got that needs dumped, let's get that done too 

Depending on the type of cart, I've got dumping tools that'll do gb, gbc, gba and it currently has a handle on a multitude of multicart to one off boards and re-writable boards too.  Before I realized it was online I dumped that Sintax Metal Slug clone with it weeks ago.  Anything licensed and unlicensed of the era it can do, and I've not run into a game I can't take a grab from yet.  Writing is hit and miss, read seems to be 100%.  I just hope they add Nintendo Power GB Memory support as I want to update my white cart.