Collectors and prototypes: have times changed much in your opinion?

[akogingu | 5]

I've recently started looking into old prototypes that were shown off on the internet ages ago, whether it be a faint memory of an auction or a random post on a forum I remember ages ago. Needless to say, there's quite a lot of things over the years that have turned up only to slip through the cracks and become completely forgotten. I can't even fathom how many protos probably were mentioned on the Assembler forums, for example, and now that whole place is gone with no easy to access archive. Lots of things some random collector maybe hinted at owning are now lost to time, with their now possibly former-collector who probably won't ever have any reason to even think of looking back at what they own. People age, priorities change.

NintendoAge is a similar case. I know there were also a lot of prototypes collectors there, but not all of them shared everything they had, or what they did share, they never intended to "share" aka dump the data on the internet.

I'm just curious how members of this community feel about prototypes now, since I've seen enough sentiment looking over here that implies some thought of the old guard as being a bit archaic in their ways, not as inclusive as they could have been. Let's face it, prototypes have always been a sort of elusive club many love to get into, and once they're in, they often enjoy having a gloating piece that they have no intent of ever sharing. It's hard to really talk about this without sounding like I'm ready to just start name-calling with terms such as "hoarder", but that's not my intent. Prototypes just have always been something that have admittedly fed into some's egos in getting to own the only known copy of something.

Times have changed though. It's kind of funny looking back because it was only 2019 when NA died, but that along with the previous death of Assembler I think put the final nail in the coffin regarding how closed off the whole prototype thing has felt. With Twitter becoming an even more common place for people to discuss prototypes, to Discord taking over with groups such as the Hidden Palace, prototypes have never been more associated with the idea of preservation than now, whereas in the past it was always more a case of mysterious collectors owning rarities on niche forums. The Video Game History Foundation also is known enough to the point I think anyone posting on Twitter in response to any prototypes being shown off (i.e. Tim Stamper's recent Conker 64 reveal) that is begging for a "dump" or for the proto to be "preserved" likely has learned those terms from Twitter accounts such as the VGHF. All of that "zomg torrent please" talk was previously relegated to obscure posts on these niche forums with a niche userbase of nerds. Now you've got tweets with millions of views and almost every response understanding what a "dump" is 

I suppose I'm sort of ranting, but I guess what I'm getting at is, for anyone here that owns prototypes you've yet to look into preserving, what is your viewpoint on owning them? Do you think you'll eventually share them someday? Do you just see them as collectors objects and think people asking for data dumps are entitled choosing beggars? Do you see them as investments?

And in the context of how I began this post, do you happen to own anything that you've been holding onto for over a decade now and it sort of just sits, forgotten? I've been dismayed at how hard it is to track down some individuals that were former prolific members on some forums, and the protos they owned are now probably going to be lost for good unless they make some miracle comeback. Don't even get me started on eBay having zero archival of anything.

Discuss!

[RH | 4,903]

Many, many years ago I dabbled in collecting.  I managed to get out of college, busy, got married, etc. and I didn't get to actually get into collecting until 2916.  I recall way back when I first started looking, say 2000 or so, at collecting and the early days of eBay, protos often seemed like "holy grails", as they'd be called today.  I think they were a bit harder to find because not many people were seriously collecting, so finding a proto, especially to a popular title, was a bit rare.  I never got a proto and I don't recall specific games but I remember most of them fetching a high sum of cash compared to the rest of the market.

Fast forward to the day and I think protos are a bit more prevalent (mostly because people started looking for them) but I also feel that the collector market at-large just hasn't gotten a "proto" bug.  Other than the discovery of an unreleased game or an early build of a very popular title, protos IMHO are largely unnoticed, except by those of us who've been collecting at least +5 years, before the current bubble.

So, yeah, the dynamic is different. To put protos in comparison, to me they're like ash can comics.  I assume the market for those items has fluctuated over the years and most of those are ignored compared to other copies of comics, with the exception of first appearances of historic characters.  Protos are more common, because an ash can comic might have only one copy, where a game could have anywhere from 1 to 20ish protos surface over time, plus those protos may be in various states.  Still, it's an early-work and right now I think the market is too focused on sealed/graded games.  In time, though, newcomers may get bored with all of these graded games or realize that some this stuff that's "rare" isn't unique in the broad sense, and they may look for other unique items... and protos may see a resurgence in popularity.  Maybe.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:11 PM, akogingu said:

Times have changed though. It's kind of funny looking back because it was only 2019 when NA died, but that along with the previous death of Assembler I think put the final nail in the coffin regarding how closed off the whole prototype thing has felt. With Twitter becoming an even more common place for people to discuss prototypes, to Discord taking over with groups such as the Hidden Palace, prototypes have never been more associated with the idea of preservation than now, whereas in the past it was always more a case of mysterious collectors owning rarities on niche forums. The Video Game History Foundation also is known enough to the point I think anyone posting on Twitter in response to any prototypes being shown off (i.e. Tim Stamper's recent Conker 64 reveal) that is begging for a "dump" or for the proto to be "preserved" likely has learned those terms from Twitter accounts such as the VGHF. All of that "zomg torrent please" talk was previously relegated to obscure posts on these niche forums with a niche userbase of nerds. Now you've got tweets with millions of views and almost every response understanding what a "dump" is 

Things have taken a really severe downturn, which makes me really not want to share dumps with anyone. The Video Game History Foundation is (IMO) not a particularly professional organization; I put my name / reputation on the line different times with people (i.e. strangers) regarding prototypes, yet they never got back to the people, making me look like an ass in the process. Being busy is one thing, but being harder to contact than the dead itself is totally unnecessary and unprofessional, especially when we are talking about a group that *should* be concerned about the documentation and preservation of items. Similarly is their usage of certain dubious terminology when describing some items.

Throw into the mix that by now undumped, slabbed prototypes are being listed for four, five, even six figures, well why would anyone want to dump, release, talk about their games? I certainly don't have a desire to do so, especially as the folks dumping and "preserving" games has extended into disregard for the feelings of some developers in the scene - sorry but it creates a bad look to the scene entirely, as at the end of the day whether people are dumping plug n play machines, prototypes, or homebrew games, the justification is always in the name of "preservation". Pair that with the huge monetary loss, yeah no thanks, either buy the games from me or they don't get dumped.

This is coming from someone with a few "unreleased" games as well as a Sonic proto and some other protos with changes and stuff.

[Ankos | 435]

I sort of have an interest in "preserving" some things, though I'm not into prototypes. I feel like it would be pretty arrogant to go around calling myself a "game preservationist" though. At this point it feels like people want to preserve literally everything, even things that have zero following with no chance of ever having a following. When I see people go and preserve something they don't care about, and then forget about it after they are done it makes me wonder why they bothered to track it down at all

To me, I'd want to see something preserved because I think it is neat and I want to share it with others. Not for the sake of preservation or some grand moral reason or anything like that, just that I like it

I don't really have an issue with people not releasing stuff though. If they can find the game I am interested in, then so can I, so I'll just go and find it myself and that will be the end of it. I think that anyone who isn't willing to hunt a game down really shouldn't expect others to hunt it down for them

Side note: There's also points where I think things done in the name of preservation were straight up amoral, like Nintendo getting hacked, or people dumping and sharing on-market games. If something is still readily available, then sharing the ROM for it is really "preservation" because it is already available

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

1. I have over 100 NES prototypes, including some very valuable and one-of-a-kind.
2. The more valuable ones have not and will not be shared as long as I own them, though I have dumped the ROM for preservation.
3. I didn't buy them as an investment but honestly I see them being worth 7 figures one day. I would much rather have one of these prototypes than a sealed Super Mario 64. I do fully intend to make $1,000,000 on them at some point.
4. I have not forgotten about them, though I rarely see them on the occassion I visit my safety deposit box at the bank.

[Moondog | 19]

I will always be on the side of preservation when it comes to prototypes, even if it means a private dump is all that exists. There are still some protos I would kill to see released, though! I am mostly intersted in PS1 games, and have dumped a few discs before. In the end I get to keep the physical media and the data is safer out there than only with me.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

5. I've contacted Frank Cifaldi multiple times to give him my prototypes for preservation and he has ghosted me every time.

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Sounds like Frank is potentially two faced or a flake, both which are rotten for preservation when he's given the keys to the city and he doesn't bother to reach out and take it.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

Sounds like Frank is potentially two faced or a flake, both which are rotten for preservation when he's given the keys to the city and he doesn't bother to reach out and take it.

I'd like to think that he's just extremely busy, but that doesn't entirely excuse this sort of behavior. I find it terribly annoying as he's basically "the guy" for preservation, yet is more or less impossible to contact, and has left multiple people hanging multiple times. This isn't the way to be doing business.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

You guys might want to be careful about talking shit about a group of people that have actually started a foundation for game preservation without allowing them to defend themselves. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

@theredeye

[a3quit4s | 4,096]

It’s amazing how one comment leads to people jumping to conclusions on people. I’m neither friend or foe to anyone at video game preservation but @Code Monkey can come off in the wrong way sometimes if you haven’t interacted with him much. Perhaps maybe some lines got crossed and some communication was missed. 

The superior attitude could be worked on a bit. 

[Tanooki | 4,932]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

I'd like to think that he's just extremely busy, but that doesn't entirely excuse this sort of behavior. I find it terribly annoying as he's basically "the guy" for preservation, yet is more or less impossible to contact, and has left multiple people hanging multiple times. This isn't the way to be doing business.

And I can respect being busy, but whether you get 10 or 100 emails a day, it's about managing your time and getting back, even if it needs a flag and wait for a Mail Monday's moment or whatever for outside communication.  It's the repeated times it happened and not a peep which is why I made that either-or situation.

[Ankos | 435]

54 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

You guys might want to be careful about talking shit about a group of people that have actually started a foundation for game preservation without allowing them to defend themselves. 

I do have a lot of respect for what they are doing. It does sound like there are some issues with communication and how it is operated behind the scenes, but at the end of the day they are doing good things and I can appreciate that

I was more of just trying to say that people shouldn't feel pressured to preserve everything, even things they are not passionate about preserving

I also don't think that people need to rely on others in order to preserve games a lot of the time. If someone's got the money to hunt undumped games, then they probably have the money to buy dumping hardware, so they don't really need to rely on anyone if they can't find a preservation group they want to work with

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

You guys might want to be careful about talking shit about a group of people that have actually started a foundation for game preservation without allowing them to defend themselves. 

I am certain that you are not talking about my comments, and if you are lumping my remarks with the above comment that you made, you yourself should be careful, as you have no idea what situations I am referring to, and what I've said is anything but talking shit".

[fcgamer | 4,723]

25 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

And I can respect being busy, but whether you get 10 or 100 emails a day, it's about managing your time and getting back, even if it needs a flag and wait for a Mail Monday's moment or whatever for outside communication.  It's the repeated times it happened and not a peep which is why I made that either-or situation.

Well putting my reputation on the line and then getting my ass hairs burnt in the process is where I personally draw the line. 

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Well that would be a lot of scorch, definitely a problem.

[spacepup | 2,404]

VGHF is still a relatively small organization compared to other types of organizations and non-profits that are out there.  They are doing a lot of good work.  

There is SO much work to be done in this area, that there is no way any one organization (especially a small one) can possibly even come close to handling everything.

I am on the board for a non-profit preservation related organization, "Hit Save," and we are also still a small organization, with limited availability at this time, and a focused scope.

I don't know the specifics regarding communication issues that may have occurred, but I think it's grossly unfair and unfortunate to see some of the comments in a few threads about Frank, who has done a lot for preservation over the years.  It's easy to focus on what someone has "not" done, but that shouldn't take away from all the good they "have" done.

Small non-profit organizations have very limited resources, both in terms of funding and also in terms of time / availability.  

 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,520]

9 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

5. I've contacted Frank Cifaldi multiple times to give him my prototypes for preservation and he has ghosted me every time.

You sure you're not leaving a detail or three out?

[Jeevan | 8,910]

In defense of anyone who is in a preservation group........

@Code Monkey some groups will loan you equipment to dump things for them and verify stuff etc.  Have you tried any other groups?  I know personally that I am on a list to receive some equipment from a preservation group to help them verify things for the n64.

Might be something to look into.  Ask if they can send equipment if you don't have it to dump the stuff for them.  Or find another group that is passionate about it.  

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Jeevan

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

31 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I am certain that you are not talking about my comments, and if you are lumping my remarks with the above comment that you made, you yourself should be careful, as you have no idea what situations I am referring to, and what I've said is anything but talking shit".

I dont have to be careful about shit, lets be clear about that.  Take it how ever you want. 
 

Facts:
You said they arent professional in your post, with zero evidence, other than your hearsay “in your opinion” -Maybe some background about how “unprofessional” they are, with actual evidence, will help some people maybe decide if they want to work with them (outside of the hundreds and hundreds who have already have donated thousands upon thousands of pieces of media-with positive reviews)
 

“They” are a highly respected group in the greater video game community, who obviously spend a huge amount of their own time and money into game preservation. Like real websites, full research library, capturing and archiving code and media, along with booths at conventions, etc. 
 

It sucks how you were magically wronged by them - how your sparkling reputation was tarnished by a non profit in another country who didnt respond on your time frame to someone you recommended to them. 
 

We get it though, being contrarian to mainstream feeling is the part you play blah blah blah Not looking to make YET ANOTHER THREAD, about you and your feelings- something that is weirdly acceptable to the mods at this point.

 

  But, Like,  I really dont care in the end. Whatever you say on this site, will not stop their legacy and mission in the slightest. And I appreciate that. 
 

I wont be responding anymore in this thread unless its pertinent to the actual OP. 

 

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, spacepup said:

I don't know the specifics regarding communication issues that may have occurred, but I think it's grossly unfair and unfortunate to see some of the comments in a few threads about Frank, who has done a lot for preservation over the years.  It's easy to focus on what someone has "not" done, but that shouldn't take away from all the good they "have" done.

It's an extremely bad look for the organization when people with possibly significant artifacts are put in touch with the organization to be ghosted after a message or two, and it certainly doesn't instill confidence in the party, who was directed towards the organization to begin with.

This is really something that the organization needs to work on, and it seems to be a reoccurring issue.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

You guys might want to be careful about talking shit about a group of people that have actually started a foundation for game preservation without allowing them to defend themselves. 

I didn't give my opinion, I merely stated facts. My opinion is that I'm frustrated when my last communication was literally, "Please let me know how I can get you these undumped prototypes so they can be preserved" and he didn't care enough to respond.

I messaged him again months later and he apologized for not getting back to me for months. I asked him again how I get him the prototypes and exactly the same result......bubkis.

He could very well just be busy, that's fine and he may have forgotten about our conversation but.......twice? At this point I'm waiting for him to reach out to me or I'll just accept he's not interested.

 

2 hours ago, a3quit4s said:

It’s amazing how one comment leads to people jumping to conclusions on people. I’m neither friend or foe to anyone at video game preservation but @Code Monkey can come off in the wrong way sometimes if you haven’t interacted with him much. Perhaps maybe some lines got crossed and some communication was missed. 

The superior attitude could be worked on a bit. 

Thanks, I have problems expressing myself properly sometimes.

 

1 hour ago, Jeevan said:

In defense of anyone who is in a preservation group........

@Code Monkey some groups will loan you equipment to dump things for them and verify stuff etc.  Have you tried any other groups?  I know personally that I am on a list to receive some equipment from a preservation group to help them verify things for the n64.

Might be something to look into.  Ask if they can send equipment if you don't have it to dump the stuff for them.  Or find another group that is passionate about it.  

 

That's incredibly interesting, thanks. I had someone here dump all of the Tengen and some of the other random NES. I have an Analogue NT for all of the other cartridge based prototypes I have. I haven't opened it yet but I'll eventually dump them once I get my basement set up.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

1 hour ago, Reed Rothchild said:

You sure you're not leaving a detail or three out?

You're right, I'm sorry. Here are all of the details.

I emailed the Video Game History Foundation and Frank messaged me back personally. I told him I have almost the entire Tengen library, unreleased Kitty's Catch, Iron Tank, Championship Bowling, Megaman 3 and an uncirculated Megaman 2 along with many other Atari 2600 and Game Boy. He was incredibly interested, asked a whole bunch of questions and we went back and forth for a week or two with lots of emails discussing how we would do it. He said he would do it for free if I agreed to release all of the ROM files and not hold them ransom. I agreed and asked how I send him the hardware. He didn't respond.

I emailed him again about 6 months later when I bought a pile more prototypes and asked him if he still wanted the originals plus this new batch. He responded right away and apologized for ghosting me months earlier, saying he totally forgot we were talking. We went back and forth a bit on my new prototypes and then once again I asked him how I send him the hardware. Once again, no response.

Once is a simple mistake, twice is a little rude.

If he reads this and is still interested, he still has my contact. I will accept he simply got busy and forgot, it happens.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

Frank Cifaldi bid against me for some retro video game magazines on eBay. That bastard!!