The NESMaker Distinction

[SoleGoose | 95]

Conversation goes here, for those that want to partake.

[Deadeye | 1,601]

To give it a little more focus:

Should we mark Homebrew projects that use NESmaker for its development on VGS with an informational tag?

Edited November 14, 2019 by Deadeye

[Raftronaut | 100]

If developed using Nesmaker code base, Graphic or audio assets then YES. 

If the developer uses Nesmaker as a spring board tool for coding a game from the ground up then NO

[DefaultGen | 5,722]

Yes

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

Require?  No.

Offer it as an optional tag?  Yes.

 

I don't really see any merit in mandating that a poster use a particular tag for their project.

Edited November 14, 2019 by arch_8ngel

[Gloves | 12,240]

Why would you?

[EnigMog | 17]

Of course. NESmaker policy is that games made using it are supposed to distinguish that fact.

[Scrobins | 1,804]

5 minutes ago, Raftronaut said:

If developed using Nesmaker code base, Graphic or audio assets then YES. 

If the developer uses Nesmaker as a spring board tool for coding a game from the ground up then NO

And if there’s consensus about drawing the line there, and developers let me know, I am comfortable revising my lists accordingly because at least there would be an agreed on an consistent application.

[gauauu | 81]

2 minutes ago, Raftronaut said:

If developed using Nesmaker code base, Graphic or audio assets then YES. 

If the developer uses Nesmaker as a spring board tool for coding a game from the ground up then NO

I somewhat agree. Longer explanation:

For a buyer/player, I don't think any distinction matters. Who cares what engine they used if the game is good?

 

But for me, who is interested in the development community, a distinction does matter, although I somewhat disagree with some of the arguments expressed by both Beau and Joe.

Game programming and game design are two very different things. Both are important to a good game. As a programmer, when I read about a new game,  I'm interested in the programming aspects of that game (as well as game design aspects).  Your average NESmaker game involves a lot of design, but very little game-specific programming (Sure, a lot of people copy/paste a few fixes or tweaks, but I disagree with Joe that this is the exact same thing as pulling in an audio engine.) This isn't to say that the game is worth less, or is bad. But I (as someone interested in game programming community) won't find that community engagement in the development of the game. The essence of the vast majority of NESmaker games is just game design with only minor tweaks from the standard nesmaker engine(s).

The design aspect (in contrast to the programming) can use all sorts of tools -- famitracker, screen tool, Tiled, custom tools, or NESmaker. I don't care what you use. I don't think that using NESmaker for design is what the proposed labeling is about. We all use all sorts of tools, and NESmaker is a valid choice.  Valid game design discussion and community shouldn't care about which tool was used.

So in @Mugi case, I'd suggest that leaving off the NESmaker label for this particular game is a reasonable idea. Sure, NESmaker was involved. But the game has its own significant programming involved, which interests me. But your average NESmaker game, with only small code tweaks, while still quite interesting from a game design perspective, isn't interesting from a programming perspective. And that is what the labeling would reflect to me.

So in the end, it comes down to the question: "who is this list for?"  If it's only about players or collectors, then sure, drop the label. If it's only about game design, drop it. But if it's also about nes programming community, then I appreciate knowing which games were programmed by their development team.

 

As an aside: Joe suggested that part of the problem is the question of where is the line between tweaking nesmaker vs developing your own engine but including bits of other code? I'm not interested in arguing about exactly where that line lies. But the fact that there's a spectrum of where it could lie does not mean that it's impossible for there to be a line.

[SoleGoose | 95]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Why would you?

 

Why would you not? We clarify things all of the time on the forums in order to know what we're talking about. Is that game sealed, or a reseal? Did you use save states, or did you beat it legit? Is Super Mario Bros. a "super Nintendo" game, or a "Super" Nintendo game. Some don't care, others do. Is that game a hack, or was it programmed from scratch? NESMaker questions are similar.

 

[SoleGoose | 95]

As for Mugi's game, we have hacks that have been completely recoded. At the end of the day, they are still hacks, it's no different (not calling it a hack either, before that gets taken out of context). Pyronaut anyone?

[gauauu | 81]

2 minutes ago, SoleGoose said:

As for Mugi's game, we have hacks that have been completely recoded. At the end of the day, they are still hacks, it's no different (not calling it a hack either, before that gets taken out of context). Pyronaut anyone?

See, that's interesting, because I  almost mentioned that I'm just as interested in a romhack that includes a huge re-code overhaul. Sure, it's still a romhack, but as a programmer, I find Pyronaut every bit as interesting as a new homebrew.  Because I care about the programming process. Re-skin romhacks or using a level editor to rearrange the levels isn't interesting to me in the same way.

Edited November 14, 2019 by gauauu

[RH | 5,196]

6 minutes ago, EnigMog said:

Of course. NESmaker policy is that games made using it are supposed to distinguish that fact.

Is that so? Because IMHO, if you pay to use a tool, you shouldn't have to have "Made with XXX" on your game/software.  I get it if it's a free tool.  It's a way of saying "hey, you used our stuff to make a game, so give us some free advertising". It makes sense.  But if you're paying for that software, who cares if you used it or not.

[EnigMog | 17]

3 minutes ago, RH said:

Is that so? Because IMHO, if you pay to use a tool, you shouldn't have to have "Made with XXX" on your game/software.  I get it if it's a free tool.  It's a way of saying "hey, you used our stuff to make a game, so give us some free advertising". It makes sense.  But if you're paying for that software, who cares if you used it or not.

Policy might have been a strong word but encouraged: https://thenew8bitheroes.tumblr.com/post/184948012074/nesmaker-publishing?fbclid=IwAR1yOzeaLXcKsZL1y_UcSNtjCa-lEWE3TNZXkwkHlKDXdyIO0ECMzb-OljE

Edited November 14, 2019 by EnigMog

[Gloves | 12,240]

If you're going to add such distinction, for interests' sake, I'd say let's toss on the tools used for as many games as possible. Is it not interesting to know that UserX made GameY with C# instead of straight Assembly (or whatever)? Let's consider NESMaker what it is - a tool. You're not making a NESMaker game, you're making a game using NESMaker; the verbiage here is important I think. Rather than putting baby in a corner cuz he used a tool, why not go the other way and simply say we want to have as much info on as many games as possible available and up for discussion?

Looking at the list and JUST having "NESMaker" next to some games while the rest are barren of details is actually I think doing the OTHER games a disservice. Let's get something like this going:

• Doug's Cool Game
  • NESMaker
  • Visual Studio Code
  • Mesen
  • Some audio engine or something
• SoleGoose's Game Jam
  • Sublime Text Editor
  • Assembly
• gauauu's GBA Extravaganza
  • VIM
  • Literally just Basic

[Gloves | 12,240]

3 minutes ago, EnigMog said:

https://thenew8bitheroes.tumblr.com/post/184948012074/nesmaker-publishing?fbclid=IwAR1yOzeaLXcKsZL1y_UcSNtjCa-lEWE3TNZXkwkHlKDXdyIO0ECMzb-OljE

1) you are under no legal obligation to announce that your product was created with NESmaker, however we hope you are proud of that fact, and it would be unethical to explicitly claim otherwise.

 

That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[SoleGoose | 95]

2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

If you're going to add such distinction, for interests' sake, I'd say let's toss on the tools used for as many games as possible. Is it not interesting to know that UserX made GameY with C# instead of straight Assembly (or whatever)? Let's consider NESMaker what it is - a tool. You're not making a NESMaker game, you're making a game using NESMaker; the verbiage here is important I think. Rather than putting baby in a corner cuz he used a tool, why not go the other way and simply say we want to have as much info on as many games as possible available and up for discussion?

Looking at the list and JUST having "NESMaker" next to some games while the rest are barren of details is actually I think doing the OTHER games a disservice. Let's get something like this going:

• Doug's Cool Game
  • NESMaker
  • Visual Studio Code
  • Mesen
  • Some audio engine or something
• SoleGoose's Game Jam
  • Sublime Text Editor
  • Assembly
• gauauu's GBA Extravaganza
  • VIM
  • Literally just Basic

 

If we're all working with hand tools and another group is using a high tech CNC mill, there's a difference. Those that cannot see the difference between one tool and any tool aren't going to see a difference here. If I'm in the market for handcrafted wood items, I'm going to want to know the difference.

 

[gauauu | 81]

2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

If you're going to add such distinction, for interests' sake, I'd say let's toss on the tools used for as many games as possible

Well, I'd be totally down with that if the information was available. That said, there's a big difference between the tool used, and the content included.  An audio engine, or shiru's neslib is a much closer comparison -- those end up as part of your game.  NESmaker is both a tool and an engine.  Nesmaker the engine is like neslib or famitone.  NESMaker the tool is like vim, sublime, or Mesen.   Mixing tools and content is confusing and not as helpful.
 

[Mugi | 84]

ah so you are indeed just butthurt that the tool was not available for you to use when you made something, so now you want to shit on everyone using it to self-gratify your own creations then. Thanks for the clarification.

 

as far as our project goes, the point i've been trying to make is that the engine part of nesmaker no longer exists in our project. not outside of some prewritten macros, and an implementation of GGsound i saw no need to reimplement as it's fully working.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Mugi

[Gloves | 12,240]

1 minute ago, SoleGoose said:

 

If we're all working with hand tools and another group is using a high tech CNC mill, there's a difference. Those that cannot see the difference between one tool and any tool aren't going to see a difference here. If I'm in the market for handcrafted wood items, I'm going to want to know the difference.

 

Granted, sure, but my example solves that issue - more info is always better. The guy looking for "handcrafted" will see it right beside the game. The guy who wants to avoid NESMaker games for one reason or another will see "NESMaker" beside those games and move on.

[Raftronaut | 100]

7 minutes ago, EnigMog said:

https://thenew8bitheroes.tumblr.com/post/184948012074/nesmaker-publishing?fbclid=IwAR1yOzeaLXcKsZL1y_UcSNtjCa-lEWE3TNZXkwkHlKDXdyIO0ECMzb-OljE

That link contains the quote: "you are under no legal obligation to announce that your product was created with NESmaker" . 

*edit,  I should have refreshed in order to avoid this sort of redundancy 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Raftronaut

[SoleGoose | 95]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

Granted, sure, but my example solves that issue - more info is always better. The guy looking for "handcrafted" will see it right beside the game. The guy who wants to avoid NESMaker games for one reason or another will see "NESMaker" beside those games and move on.

You're still not seeing that there are a myriad of small tools and diversity, and a division between those and one large, end all be all tool

[Gloves | 12,240]

Just now, SoleGoose said:

You're still not seeing that there are a myriad of small tools and diversity, and a division between those and one large, end all be all tool

I see everything about this, you're probably misunderstanding.

Put "NESMaker" beside the games that are made with it. Maybe that means that game literally just has the one thing beside it, sure. But try getting info on the other games. It'd be interesting to see wouldn't it? Don't you ever go "Hey I wonder how that was made"? It'd be nice if there was at least a hint at how stuff was made, yeah?

[Mugi | 84]

he just doesnt want to create such a list because his own creations use just as many tools as everyone else's so it "takes off from his work" OMG SoleGoose used a tool.

No, it just has to be stated for other people because it makes him look better when people think that he wrote nametables by hand while other people used screen tool.

 

i will hop off this discussion now though. It' has become obvious to me that new people are not welcomed to "nes homebrew development" so i will go back to play with legos.

 

thanks for everyone so far on the kind words towards the not a real homebrew game we're making. I appreciate it.

[Gloves | 12,240]

2 minutes ago, Mugi said:

he just doesnt want to create such a list because his own creations use just as many tools as everyone else's so it "takes off from his work" OMG SoleGoose used a tool.

No, it just has to be stated for other people because it makes him look better when people think that he wrote nametables by hand while other people used screen tool.

 

i will hop off this discussion now though. It' has become obvious to me that new people are not welcomed to "nes homebrew development" so i will go back to play with legos.

 

thanks for everyone so far on the kind words towards the not a real homebrew game we're making. I appreciate it.

Try to keep in mind that SoleGoose isn't the only person here. Frankly it seems rather immature to just bail on the conversation because one guy wants to see a distinction made. We're here to have a conversation and you can totally disagree with each other, but you're being pretty childish about the whole thing, it's really not shining a great light on your side of it.

Your game looks great, it's an example IMO of the greatness that can come from using a tool like NESMaker, and why I tend to defend it as just that - just a tool along the way. But I could do without the name calling and attitude.