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VGS rare variant/error thread Nintendo edition


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On 3/6/2021 at 11:50 AM, DK said:

Took pics of all 3 boards.

Capcom MM6 - 9345 date

-1 MM6 - 9403 date

Playtronic MM6 - 9620 date

The hole you are talking about is only on the Capcom and -1 boards, the Brazilian board has no hole.

(Pics so large I have to make separate pic posts)

SAM_9944.JPG.b76e8a249b367948f6c82b01b7d36253.JPG

 

My USA-1 has no hole. Also there’s another thread where a member shows Playtronic board pics and his board has the hole.

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On 3/6/2021 at 10:04 AM, DK said:

If that was the case, why would the box have "For sale and use in USA, Canada and Mexico only" on it?

If they had no plans to sell it in the USA they would have had "For sale and use in Mexico and South America only"

Maybe they made a 5000k print run for the US and didn't want to make more. Then Nintendo who was pushing the top loader in 1993 swooped in and bought the distribution from them, so they sent the carts to South America since they no longer had the distribution rights to the USA.

Just a guess, but it makes the most sense to me.

 

MM6 Var side1.jpg

You have any more pictures of this beauty?

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On 3/9/2021 at 9:07 PM, phart010 said:

 

If Capcom published it, they’d have to pay for manufacturing, marketing, handle distribution channels, customer support, etc. Maybe they didn’t see the ROI, unfortunately we can’t really say anything educated without seeing Megaman games sales figures specific to North America.

Since Nintendo published the game, Capcoms cost was zero and they just collected royalties off the sales from Nintendo.

 

Yeah this is exactly what I was going for, which is why MM5 is rarer than MM6.

In fact, I was at my friends house yesterday (I showed him Mega Man V for GB and we played it on the Super Game Boy).  His wife was telling me a story that they had Mega Man 1 - 4 but then they saw Mega Man 6.  They never saw 5.  Only years later they saw it, but at the time they didn't see or they would have bought it.  

Theres no doubt to me Capcom decided the game wouldn't be worth it for them if they had to pay the tab to print an NES game in the states on a dying system.  Theres no 'test run' or anything.  Either you release the game or you dont.  Companies distributing the game shell out the price to get their carts made (what was it like $8 a game?) and base the amount to print on how much it would sell.  If it sells really well, they'll make another print run.  Its been speculated that the minimum print run was 10k carts.  Id say thats feasible.  AFAIK one of the only games that has a known print run is Maniac Mansion, the first run is 250k carts and then I think they added another 100k.  So 350k carts and take into consideration how often you see that game.  Not often, but not rare.

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On 3/10/2021 at 8:18 PM, guitarzombie said:

Yeah this is exactly what I was going for, which is why MM5 is rarer than MM6.

In fact, I was at my friends house yesterday (I showed him Mega Man V for GB and we played it on the Super Game Boy).  His wife was telling me a story that they had Mega Man 1 - 4 but then they saw Mega Man 6.  They never saw 5.  Only years later they saw it, but at the time they didn't see or they would have bought it.  

Theres no doubt to me Capcom decided the game wouldn't be worth it for them if they had to pay the tab to print an NES game in the states on a dying system.  Theres no 'test run' or anything.  Either you release the game or you dont.  Companies distributing the game shell out the price to get their carts made (what was it like $8 a game?) and base the amount to print on how much it would sell.  If it sells really well, they'll make another print run.  Its been speculated that the minimum print run was 10k carts.  Id say thats feasible.  AFAIK one of the only games that has a known print run is Maniac Mansion, the first run is 250k carts and then I think they added another 100k.  So 350k carts and take into consideration how often you see that game.  Not often, but not rare.

Lets get some things straight.  The size of the print run is a variable based on market research. But the minimum first print run is 100K to see equitable profit from the cost of burning in the chip with the video game software, (Nintendo may have had business rules for a larger amount).  This is because the real cost of a chip is in building the masks. Fabrication facilities charge to build these masks (a series of maps in software that tell the fabrication machine where to apply material for each stage, a series of chemical and photolithograph masks, order of operations for masking, etching and impregnation of materials, and the rules for deconflicting steps in the process), for this chip process the cost was around $500,000. (its more for smaller scale chip processes). But once you have the masks, the cost of the chips are pennies, and a second run is much less. (so 10k could be a minimum run afterwards, who knows). Keep in mind that there were 33 million NES systems sold in the US. A minimum run game like blockbuster exclusives or Little Sampson, means there would be little over three for every thousand Nintendo players out there, (give or take).

Because the cost to distribute these is so great, that is why many games get enough production to test market acceptance. For instance since the NES was going strong in Brazil some games near the end came out there first (MM6) and later expanded into the greater US markets.

Also Mega Man 5 is not all that rare, but it is less common than MM4 or MM6. But still every toy store in the Midwest received a copy.  At the time every store I was in had one. But it's possible that this game did not see much in the way of further prints with the advent of other gaming systems, which might account for the unique distribution of MM6.

Edited by Stormarov.45
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15 minutes ago, Stormarov.45 said:

Lets get some things straight.  The size of the print run is a variable based on market research. But the minimum first print run is 100K to see equitable profit from the cost of burning in the chip with the video game software, (Nintendo may have had business rules for a larger amount).  This is because the real cost of a chip is in building the masks.

How sure are you about this 100k minimum print run? This is the first time I’ve heard that, I’ve always read it was probably 10k

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But the minimum first print run is 100K to see equitable profit from the cost of burning in the chip with the video game software, (Nintendo may have had business rules for a larger amount). 

Where's your proof?

This is because the real cost of a chip is in building the masks. Fabrication facilities charge to build these masks (a series of maps in software that tell the fabrication machine where to apply material for each stage, a series of chemical and photolithograph masks, order of operations for masking, etching and impregnation of materials, and the rules for deconflicting steps in the process), for this chip process the cost was around $500,000. (its more for smaller scale chip processes).

The process of burning a Mask ROM is different from an EPROM?  I thought they were identical except EPROMs are obviously erasable.  I thought they were like blank CDs.  Also how do you know how much that process cost in the early 90s?

A minimum run game like blockbuster exclusives or Little Sampson, means there would be little over three for every thousand Nintendo players out there, (give or take).

Samson.  Again were talking about games that were released in late 1993/94.  The marketing for the NES seemed to be skewed to younger kids, where the SNES was for the older, cooler kids.  Not many people were buying new NES games unless they A) were old enough to just get an NES or B) Their parents didn't want to move them into a new gaming system.  Im sure based on SNES/NES sales, they could see not a lot of people were clamouring to buy new NES games but the SNES was doing well, getting all the press and promotion.

Also Mega Man 5 is not all that rare, but it is less common than MM4 or MM6.

It IS rare, comparatively to other major VG franchises at the time.  Even now, go into a local VG store and see how often they get it.

 

 

EDIT.  I did want to mention 100k being the minimum could make things easier if we know its true.  I always found it odd some of these rare NES games, especially ones featured in Nintendo Power (Samson, Panic Restaurant) would be printed so low when theres that much advertising?  It would seem silly to put the game in the magazine that goes everywhere in the US but you can't find the game to buy.

Edited by guitarzombie
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On 3/16/2021 at 10:41 AM, guitarzombie said:

The process of burning a Mask ROM is different from an EPROM?  I thought they were identical except EPROMs are obviously erasable.  I thought they were like blank CDs.  Also how do you know how much that process cost in the early 90s?

NES chips, specifically the PRG chip was not an EEPROM (electronically erasable). They are burned in. But good point. I may have my cost model wrong.

I have been meaning to send a letter to Nintendo America about this for a while. I will try to do that this week.

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15 minutes ago, Stormarov.45 said:

NES chips, specifically the PRG chip was not an EEPROM (electronically erasable). They are burned in. But good point. I may have my cost model wrong.

I have been meaning to send a letter to Nintendo America about this for a while. I will try to do that this week.

While your doing that ask them where’s all the Stadium Events

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3 hours ago, Stormarov.45 said:

NES chips, specifically the PRG chip was not an EEPROM (electronically erasable). They are burned in. But good point. I may have my cost model wrong.

I have been meaning to send a letter to Nintendo America about this for a while. I will try to do that this week.

I mean I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the process of burning EPROMs isn't any different from Mask Roms, just that you can only do it once and thats it.  

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1 hour ago, guitarzombie said:

I mean I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the process of burning EPROMs isn't any different from Mask Roms, just that you can only do it once and thats it.  

I'm pretty sure you are just thinking of EEPROM. They look like Mask Roms (no quartz window), but are programmed like EPROMs (but are erased electronically instead of with an ultraviolet light source).

From here, "In mask ROM, a mask is used in the wafer process stage to write program code and data supplied by the equipment manufacturer. Each customer requires a custom mask, which means a wafer processing step, package assembly step and test step each time a customer order is placed. This sequence takes a minimum of six to 10 days." (not the best description but the best I could find).

From the Wikipedia page for EPROM, "Storing data in the memory requires selecting a given address and applying a higher voltage to the transistors. This creates an avalanche discharge of electrons, which have enough energy to pass through the insulating oxide layer and accumulate on the gate electrode. When the high voltage is removed, the electrons are trapped on the electrode.[4] Because of the high insulation value of the silicon oxide surrounding the gate, the stored charge cannot readily leak away and the data can be retained for decades."

Essentially Mask Roms are not "burned", they are manufactured using an involved process only possible by large chip manufactures. While EPROMs can be programmed just by sending the correct signals to the already manufactured chip.

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2 hours ago, guitarzombie said:

I mean I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the process of burning EPROMs isn't any different from Mask Roms, just that you can only do it once and thats it.  

Mask roms are not burned. The “data” in mask roms are physically etched into the materials that they are made of using manufacturing process.

Its kinda similar to how cds can be “burned” using a laser or they can be stamped using a disc press and a tool patterned specifically for the cd that you are trying to manufacture.

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