WATA's going on here?

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

14 hours ago, Link said:

Just generally... why are there so many problems? Is this the kind of thing where every single issue gets a lot of attention due to the nature bearing high expectations, or is the whole service sector really so totally unreliable in its sole purpose?

I am going to partially agree with @jonebone by saying that the issues might not be limited to the graders, but rather have me shift the blame onto those who are in charge of quotas. Something I started to read up on as a means to determine if CBCS was the better option compared to CGC and PGX.

For example, you can go to a Levi store both in a mall and a factory outlet. At the mall you will find how the jeans are supposed to both look and be, while the outlet tends to have the irregulars. This is because those in charge of making those jeans are expected to meet a daily quota. Which has even the best be prone to slip up if the quota is too high.

In the case of graded comic books and cards, people send these in bulk. And many expect them to be done by a set amount of time. Which can put pressure on those who are hired to deal with those types of quotas. And like the case of what I was told by a former CGC grader, graders will be told to "soften up" just so they can help complete their share of said daily quotas.

Because of that, people often do not get the Sotheby's-level of grading detail. Something that people who do not know how tough the profession is tend to expect. Which is why I tend to look at other grading companies that others here will overlook, try them out, and see if they are worth both the time and money needed for their services.

Then again, my first freelance work for Beckett was better than my second/last. The difference was that the second/last one was part of their "Best of DBZ" publication, which meant that I had around a week to do the same work I gave the first time around. Which I spent weeks on just to make sure that everything was correct.

(I wish I kept my congratulatory email I got from Kyle Hebert when it came to my first article... )

[3rdStrongestMole | 430]

33 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

Taco Bell gets my order correct every single time just like wata does. All you gotta do is say please and thank you. It’s not hard!

Maybe that's what this person did. Just said, "Please Wata, gimme big numbers..."

[Link | 2,708]

39 minutes ago, FenrirZero said:

I am going to partially agree with @jonebone by saying that the issues might not be limited to the graders, but rather have me shift the blame onto those who are in charge of quotas.

I wouldnt blame the individual people doing the grading, just the company as an entity. By whatever reason things fall through the cracks. It is interesting to hear what goes on though. Thanks for your acquaintance's story.

I'm not familiar with what Sotheby's-level detail would mean, but when stakes are high I would want attention to detail and not ratings that are clearly inaccurate. Fortunately I'm not interested in grading or putting that kind of money into this, so my opinion is immaterial anyway  

[Gulag Joe | 582]

6 hours ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

Maybe that's what this person did. Just said, "Please Wata, gimme big numbers..."

Dearest Lord Wata,

Enclosed you will find a James Bond game that will be used to worship your amazingness. Please bless it with a high grade and in return it will send you good luck. Thank you for existing, we couldn’t collect without you.

Love Always,

Joe

[jonebone | 1,307]

7 hours ago, Link said:

I'm not familiar with what Sotheby's-level detail would mean, but when stakes are high I would want attention to detail and not ratings that are clearly inaccurate. Fortunately I'm not interested in grading or putting that kind of money into this, so my opinion is immaterial anyway  

Here's the point in a nutshell.

If it's my game, I can spend 10 minutes with it looking for every little imperfection under various angles of light and carefully assessing the details.  You can be as precise as you want.

If you're a grader and have 1,000 items coming across your desk everyday, then it's a different story.  You probably have a few minutes tops to evaluate the item.  And this is speculation on my part, but if an item declared $10,000 comes across your desk then you probably allocate a bit more time to that one.  And the $100 or less items are quickly rushed through.

They mitigate this by having multiple sets of eyes on every item (i.e. just not one person responsible for the grade) but that just helps you get to an average.

Said another way, take 10 of the most qualified people in the entire world to evaluate the condition of an item (ignoring what a "qualified person" would be). I guarantee you don't get the same grade 10 times.  And that is the point, there is subjectivity in the grade and it is just an opinion of a game's condition.  Yet some people confuse this and think it's a "fact" that a game is a given grade.  It's not.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

2 hours ago, jonebone said:

And that is the point, there is subjectivity in the grade and it is just an opinion of a game's condition. 

I wish more people understood this. #1 reason not to grade. It's just some people's opinions. Why would I value some other person's opinions more than my own? I mean grade if you want to for fun/ to preserve your own copy / cause you like how it looks on a shelf /etc, but if you're dying for a stamp of approval, it's just a waste in my opinion.

[Link | 2,708]

The difference between 9.6 and 9.4 or 9.2, yes, of course that is subjective. 

A++ on a seal is ridiculous when there are tears ½" long among several other flaws and this is not caught by multiple sets of eyes. That's my subjective opinion. 

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

Crazy how having a ton of work = excuse for poor quality. 
 

In my industry, if I need someone to install 10,000 receptacles, and 25% are done shitty, I lay that guy off with a not eligible for re-hire.   It shouldn’t matter if its 1 or 1 million, all the work should be performed to acceptable quality. 
 

The addition of “quotas” show they don’t actually care about the product, just making as much money as possible and churning out grades. 

[3rdStrongestMole | 430]

58 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I wish more people understood this. #1 reason not to grade. It's just some people's opinions. Why would I value some other person's opinions more than my own? I mean grade if you want to for fun/ to preserve your own copy / cause you like how it looks on a shelf /etc, but if you're dying for a stamp of approval, it's just a waste in my opinion.

I think any time you get a (supposed) non-bias opinion working between two parties, it can be extremely useful.

(Keep in mind this copy of Bond is not a good example of this, because it's so obviously wrong.)

If I own something, I may give it higher marks because I have skin in it. Someone who's buying might go lower, to devalue my item. However,  the third party should be able to provide a more accurate evaluation because they're unbiased. 

It's like having your home assessed, or going blue-book value... It is supposed to take some of the guesswork out of valuation, and can also be used to validate one person's assessment of their own item.

All of this is only necessary if you care what other people think about your high condition stuff or if you're a buyer/seller. If you have your own opinions of your collection and don't care what an observer thinks, then grading is 100% stupid af.

[jonebone | 1,307]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

Crazy how having a ton of work = excuse for poor quality. 
 

In my industry, if I need someone to install 10,000 receptacles, and 25% are done shitty, I lay that guy off with a not eligible for re-hire.   It shouldn’t matter if its 1 or 1 million, all the work should be performed to acceptable quality. 
 

The addition of “quotas” show they don’t actually care about the product, just making as much money as possible and churning out grades. 

For one, no one said ton of work = poor quality.  It's just simple numbers when you have a lot of people estimating something that is already subjective then grades will vary.  No different than 3 boxing judges grading a fight, how often do all 3 of them say the same exact thing?  They don't, they average.  It doesn't mean 2 of the 3 people were wrong or did their job incorrectly.

Also, a strawman argument has nothing to do here... installing receptacles?  By that logic we should fire all weathermen because they aren't allowed to be wrong more than 25% of the time?  The analogy doesn't make sense.

Edited March 1, 2023 by jonebone

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 hour ago, 3rdStrongestMole said:

However,  the third party should be able to provide a more accurate evaluation because they're unbiased. 

IS WATA unbiased though? Don't they get more money if the grade is higher? Or does it only have to do with the actual value of the game, not the grade? That's never been clear to me.

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

29 minutes ago, jonebone said:

For one, no one said ton of work = poor quality.  It's just simple numbers when you have a lot of people estimating something that is already subjective then grades will vary.  No different than 3 boxing judges grading a fight, how often do all 3 of them say the same exact thing?  They don't, they average.  It doesn't mean 2 of the 3 people were wrong or did their job incorrectly.

Also, a strawman argument has nothing to do here.  What the hell does installing receptacles have to do with anything?  By that logic we should fire all weathermen because they aren't allowed to be wrong more than 25% of the time?  Leave the completely irrelevant stuff out of the topic.

No.
 

The discussion of quotas proves my point. Your point about a higher value being scrutinized more proves my point. They don’t actually care about grades, they care about churning out slabs as fast as possible. 
 

I was using my examples of receptacle install as a comparison just because thats the only way I can relate to my personal life.  Your boxing argument is a strawman because the goal isnt to have all (3) scores be equal. Its an average of all three. Does Wata send each game to three graders then take an average? I don’t actually know. Your weatherman argument is also a strawman.  Meteorologists estimate and give percentages based on likely-hood of conditions. They aren't guaranteeing with 100% accuracy its going to rain.  

 

Why does the reported value of a game matter during grading? If they really cared about transparency and consistency, the graders wouldn't even know the value. Its irrelevant to the condition. Unless they aren't told and I am mistaken.  Sounds like higher grades on higher value games drives higher auctions, which in turn drives more business to grading companies. 
 

The idea that you Jone, were on the WATA board at one point (unless you still are)  and have what I have to assume 100s of thousands of dollars tied up in sealed/ graded games removes all impartiality. Of course you are going to advocate for them, you have a vested financial interest in protecting Wata’s reputation. 
 

Just because you disagree with something doesnt make it irrelevant.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by MrWunderful

[jonebone | 1,307]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

blah blah blah

Just remove "Wata" from your take on my post and replace it with "graded items".  Yes I collect graded stuff, AFA / CAS toys, VGA / CGC / Wata Games and CGC Nintendo Powers.  I don't care about any specific company.  My comments are that every company has under or over graded items and makes plenty of mistakes along the way.  

Whenever all of the hate is directed as one specific company, I roll my eyes because they've all had questionable grades.  And I'm no better, even though I've graded 1000s of items, there's definitely been a couple where I completely missed something that a grading company caught.  I'd like to think my eye is second to none but the point remains, people make mistakes and a grading company is a people heavy process.

You clearly hate graded games and love telling people about it, so carry on.  

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

4 minutes ago, jonebone said:

Just remove "Wata" from your take on my post and replace it with "graded items".  Yes I collect graded stuff, AFA / CAS toys, VGA / CGC / Wata Games and CGC Nintendo Powers.  I don't care about any specific company.  My comments are that every company has under or over graded items and makes plenty of mistakes along the way.  

Whenever all of the hate is directed as one specific company, I roll my eyes because they've all had questionable grades.  And I'm no better, even though I've graded 1000s of items, there's definitely been a couple where I completely missed something that a grading company caught.  I'd like to think my eye is second to none but the point remains, people make mistakes and a grading company is a people heavy process.

You clearly hate graded games and love telling people about it, so carry on.  

“Blah Blah blah” shows you arent interested in actual debate, just shouting out opposing views- most likely because large amounts of money are involved.

So were you on WATAs board? Just for transparency.  Who did you grade games for? 

And I don’t “hate” graded games. I think authentication and grading of mint sealed games is important, and necessary, if you have ever read my posts about the matter. I DO NOT have a lot of money tied up in graded games but I have quite a bit of game knowledge so I am a neutral 3rd party. 
 

What I “hate” is people who take advantage of others for greed- regardless of the company or industry.

 

Everything WATA/ CGC/ VGA does is up for and should be scrutinized.  The fact that they graded a fake rondo and gave this bond game an A++ seal when it is visibly torn should be discussed and brought out in the open. 

[doner24 | 1,195]

1 hour ago, MrWunderful said:

“Blah Blah blah” shows you arent interested in actual debate, just shouting out opposing views- most likely because large amounts of money are involved.

So were you on WATAs board? Just for transparency.  Who did you grade games for? 

And I don’t “hate” graded games. I think authentication and grading of mint sealed games is important, and necessary, if you have ever read my posts about the matter. I DO NOT have a lot of money tied up in graded games but I have quite a bit of game knowledge so I am a neutral 3rd party. 
 

What I “hate” is people who take advantage of others for greed- regardless of the company or industry.

 

Everything WATA/ CGC/ VGA does is up for and should be scrutinized.  The fact that they graded a fake rondo and gave this bond game an A++ seal when it is visibly torn should be discussed and brought out in the open. 

What are the 2 of you even arguing about at this point? Everytime a grading thread pops up you can guarantee 1 thing, that you and Cody will make an appearance to let everyone know for the hundredth time that you hate grading companies. It’s getting very old.
 

Nothing that Jone said is incorrect about the companies, they all make mistakes across all industries that feature grading. 

Disclosure-I own 0 graded games, 1 graded NP and one graded baseball card and have zero financial interest in any grading companies. 

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

11 minutes ago, doner24 said:

What are the 2 of you even arguing about at this point? Everytime a grading thread pops up you can guarantee 1 thing, that you and Cody will make an appearance to let everyone know for the hundredth time that you hate grading companies. It’s getting very old.
 

Nothing that Jone said is incorrect about the companies, they all make mistakes across all industries that feature grading. 

Disclosure-I own 0 graded games, 1 graded NP and one graded baseball card and have zero financial interest in any grading companies. 

Did you actually read any of my posts?
 

WATA shit the bed on a grade, and I am posting about that. Jone said “its ok, because they have a lot of games to grade”. I offered a counterpoint. 
 

Am I breaking any rules? @Gloves can you clarify for me, because it feels like having a differing opinion is getting on some of your moderators nerves. 

[doner24 | 1,195]

10 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Did you actually read any of my posts?
 

WATA shit the bed on a grade, and I am posting about that. Jone said “its ok, because they have a lot of games to grade”. I offered a counterpoint. 
 

Am I breaking any rules? @Gloves can you clarify for me, because it feels like having a differing opinion is getting on some of your moderators nerves. 

Jone’s point was clearly that all grading services make mistakes and he offered up reasons why that might happen. 
 

You would’ve been assigned a warning if you broke the rules. I just don’t understand all of the negativity. If it’s a graded games or politics thread, you are guaranteed to be there and it’s usually not for uplifting reasons (not that is the requirement). 

[Gloves | 11,761]

22 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Am I breaking any rules? @Gloves can you clarify for me, because it feels like having a differing opinion is getting on some of your moderators nerves. 

You've not broken any rules in this regard to my knowledge (without going back to read). I believe doner is just sharing his opinion as a user, which is fine. If an official "Warning" had been handed out then that's like... official VGS stance kinda stuff. Far as I can tell he's just letting you know how he feels, and I always encourage staff to behave like they were normal, albeit preferably upstanding, members. 

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

6 minutes ago, doner24 said:

Jone’s point was clearly that all grading services make mistakes and he offered up reasons why that might happen. 
 

You would’ve been assigned a warning if you broke the rules. I just don’t understand all of the negativity. If it’s a graded games or politics thread, you are guaranteed to be there and it’s usually not for uplifting reasons (not that is the requirement). 

Oh no don’t get me wrong, I know I didnt break any rules.

Yeah my counterpoint was that in other industries, doing shitty work because of the quantity of work isnt acceptable. For some reason, it is ok with graded games that sell for thousands of dollars? Once he says that its the end of conversation?
 

Your post about “negativity” reeks of NA elitism back in the day. It makes it seem like the only acceptable answer is the fawn over how great Grading is for the community.

This isnt NA bro. If we don’t tow the company line about VGA and sealed games nothing is gonna happen here. 
 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

10 minutes ago, Gloves said:

You've not broken any rules in this regard to my knowledge (without going back to read). I believe doner is just sharing his opinion as a user, which is fine. If an official "Warning" had been handed out then that's like... official VGS stance kinda stuff. Far as I can tell he's just letting you know how he feels, and I always encourage staff to behave like they were normal, albeit preferably upstanding, members. 

Got it. I wont worry about it then

[doner24 | 1,195]

14 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Oh no don’t get me wrong, I know I didnt break any rules.

Yeah my counterpoint was that in other industries, doing shitty work because of the quantity of work isnt acceptable. For some reason, it is ok with graded games that sell for thousands of dollars? Once he says that its the end of conversation?
 

Your post about “negativity” reeks of NA elitism back in the day. It makes it seem like the only acceptable answer is the fawn over how great Grading is for the community.

This isnt NA bro. If we don’t tow the company line about VGA and sealed games nothing is gonna happen here. 
 

 

I’m assuming that enough of the work that grading companies do is fine, otherwise people wouldn’t use them. That’s the same as any other industry. There are crappy construction companies, medical supply companies, restaurants, and nearly every other industry companies that continue to get used despite their reputations. It’s not just localized to grading companies. 
 

Give me a break on the BS at the end. It seems like you just come to VGS to argue with people, and if that’s the case, carry on and keep spreading those vibes. 

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

20 minutes ago, doner24 said:

I’m assuming that enough of the work that grading companies do is fine, otherwise people wouldn’t use them. That’s the same as any other industry. There are crappy construction companies, medical supply companies, restaurants, and nearly every other industry companies that continue to get used despite their reputations. It’s not just localized to grading companies. 
 

Give me a break on the BS at the end. It seems like you just come to VGS to argue with people, and if that’s the case, carry on and keep spreading those vibes. 

People use them because it makes them money lol. I would wager most investor bros don’t even actually care about the accuracy or transparency of graded games. Just slab= more money
 

FYI-

BA, Gloves and I were the ones starting VGS/ trying to Saving NA after Dain shit on the previous community. I didn’t come to here “to argue”. Prove people wrong? Maybe. I put my money where my mouth is. 
 

But if you Check my exp, it looks like I provide a decent benefit for the community, and people happen to like my vibe. So thanks. 

 

 

[doner24 | 1,195]

6 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

People use them because it makes them money lol. I would wager most investor bros don’t even actually care about the accuracy or transparency of graded games. Just slab= more money
 

FYI-

BA, Gloves and I were the ones starting VGS/ trying to Saving NA after Dain shit on the previous community. I didn’t come to here “to argue”. Prove people wrong? Maybe. I put my money where my mouth is. 
 

But if you Check my exp, it looks like I provide a decent benefit for the community, and people happen to like my vibe. So thanks. 

 

 

Yeah, just you 3, I wasn’t part of the start of VGS either (checks old URL’s that I purchased to block in case we wanted them). Either way, I’m done arguing with you, I’ll just continue to respond to the PM’s and mod-pages I get about you and your posting.  

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 hour ago, doner24 said:

Everytime a grading thread pops up you can guarantee 1 thing, that you and Cody will make an appearance to let everyone know for the hundredth time that you hate grading companies. It’s getting very old.

lol give me a break. if I break the rules tell me otherwise leave the Nintendo Age elitism bullshit at the door. Exactly the type of shit that was the reason I mostly lurked NA instead of posted. I've made plenty of valuable contributions to discussion on this site in many threads with a multitude of topics. I've also done blog posts and also spread the word about the site to other collectors I know.

Yep I like to debate. Yep, I like to call out close minded political bullshit when I see it. Yep, I like to take digs at Wata and grading companies. If you don't want me here, tell me. If you want an echo chamber, tell me. Otherwise if its not breaking the rules I'll do as I please. I've broken the rules before and got warned and I think @Gloves and @spacepup and anyone else would agree I've been a good little poster since then. 

[doner24 | 1,195]

1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said:

lol give me a break. if I break the rules tell me otherwise leave the Nintendo Age elitism bullshit at the door. Exactly the type of shit that was the reason I mostly lurked NA instead of posted. I've made plenty of valuable contributions to discussion on this site in many threads with a multitude of topics. I've also done blog posts and also spread the word about the site to other collectors I know.

Yep I like to debate. Yep, I like to call out close minded political bullshit when I see it. Yep, I like to take digs at Wata and grading companies. If you don't want me here, tell me. If you want an echo chamber, tell me. Otherwise if its not breaking the rules I'll do as I please. I've broken the rules before and got warned and I think @Gloves and @spacepup and anyone else would agree I've been a good little poster since then. 

Again, not breaking any rules. But the constant negativity is tiring and that opinion is sooooo elitist