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8 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

It's not the same thing, I send payments using a CC all the time the normal method and don't get charged directly any fee. I had a specific 1:1 instance because I bought an 800 dollar item from a friend and the fee was pretty much 1:1 in terms of if I send it friends and family, versus the fee he received if it was a normal payment. I just took the hit that time as an act of good faith, thankfully no issues arouse as usual with him.

It's a pretty known element these days, considering I was told the requirement to get around that fee was to use my checking account (which for some reason, PP rejected). Basically, if I send 1000 bucks to you using my CC, I just send 1000 and that's it, but if it's F&F I will absolutely be charged more from my end. As for how the receiving end goes, not entirely sure these days as I haven't done a direct PP sale in awhile. 

Here is the last F&F payment I sent using a credit card, versus a normal one.

When a credit card gets processed, the card company charges a fee to whoever pulls the cash, which in your case is PayPal.  PayPal also has a policy that friends and family receiving money never pay any fees.  So when you go to pay friends and family using a credit card, you're on the hook for that processing fee.  When you pay a business or pay a person using Goods & Services, they pay that processing fee.  In the case where you pay someone via Goods & Services and use your bank account, debit card, or existing balance, PayPal still charges that same percentage, but that time they get to keep it all as profit.

There's not any mystical voodoo going on here, it's all down to how PayPal avoids paying for things out of its own pockets and determines who's going to cover for them.  If you're using a credit card, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, American Express, whoever--they're going to be charging the "merchant" requesting the money a fee which amounts to a percentage of the transaction for the privilege.  PayPal just avoids sticking it to you when you're buying stuff via Goods & Services so you're conditioned to think of it as a "free" service and get comfortable using it.  When you use your card to send money via Friends & Family, the same transaction is going on, you're just getting stuck with the tab because PayPal's policy is that "Friends & Family" are to receive 100% of whatever you're intending to send them, once again making one party in that transaction comfortable with the idea due to not getting hit with any sort of fees.

If you're using a credit card for more protection during transactions, you'll technically have it exactly once with PayPal, because the first time you ever successfully dispute something with your card company that PayPal refused to refund you, PayPal will close your account and ban you.  Why?  Because their business model is to never lose money and always have somebody else paying all the fees.

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5 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

When a credit card gets processed, the card company charges a fee to whoever pulls the cash, which in your case is PayPal.  PayPal also has a policy that friends and family receiving money never pay any fees.  So when you go to pay friends and family using a credit card, you're on the hook for that processing fee.  When you pay a business or pay a person using Goods & Services, they pay that processing fee.  In the case where you pay someone via Goods & Services and use your bank account, debit card, or existing balance, PayPal still charges that same percentage, but that time they get to keep it all as profit.

There's not any mystical voodoo going on here, it's all down to how PayPal avoids paying for things out of its own pockets and determines who's going to cover for them.  If you're using a credit card, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, American Express, whoever--they're going to be charging the "merchant" requesting the money a fee which amounts to a percentage of the transaction for the privilege.  PayPal just avoids sticking it to you when you're buying stuff via Goods & Services so you're conditioned to think of it as a "free" service and get comfortable using it.  When you use your card to send money via Friends & Family, the same transaction is going on, you're just getting stuck with the tab because PayPal's policy is that "Friends & Family" are to receive 100% of whatever you're intending to send them, once again making one party in that transaction comfortable with the idea due to not getting hit with any sort of fees.

If you're using a credit card for more protection during transactions, you'll technically have it exactly once with PayPal, because the first time you ever successfully dispute something with your card company that PayPal refused to refund you, PayPal will close your account and ban you.  Why?  Because their business model is to never lose money and always have somebody else paying all the fees.

I'm well aware of credit card fees charged generically to businesses, I'm saying that doesn't add up in this instance because PayPal themselves is taking in the 3.5 percent fee when paid using a normal G&S payment, to my understanding anyways, Paypal does not tack on a 3 percent CC fee and then differ that to the seller, and then charge an additional 3.5 percent fee for themselves. My understanding right now is if I send you 1000 dollars via G&S, Paypal collects their 3.5 percent fee and keeps it, where as if I send you the same amount via F&F, I get charged 3.5 percent from the CC and Paypal gets nothing, effectively rendering a free service with no gain basically.

It wouldn't make a lot of sense unless there exist evidence that Paypal is charge effectively 7 percent, According to this anyways, their fee is still 3.5 percent for a normal fee https://www.salecalc.com/paypal?p=1000&l=us&r=0&e=0&f=0&m=1&c=0

I'm unaware of my CC itself charging me any fees via my statements either, but I don't know how the entire thing is handled no. 

Edited by goldenpp72
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21 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

It's not the same thing, I send payments using a CC all the time the normal method and don't get charged directly any fee. I had a specific 1:1 instance because I bought an 800 dollar item from a friend and the fee was pretty much 1:1 in terms of if I send it friends and family, versus the fee he received if it was a normal payment. I just took the hit that time as an act of good faith, thankfully no issues arouse as usual with him.

It's a pretty known element these days, considering I was told the requirement to get around that fee was to use my checking account (which for some reason, PP rejected). Basically, if I send 1000 bucks to you using my CC, I just send 1000 and that's it, but if it's F&F I will absolutely be charged more from my end. As for how the receiving end goes, not entirely sure these days as I haven't done a direct PP sale in awhile. 

Here is the last F&F payment I sent using a credit card, versus a normal one. 

Screenshot_20230205_203341_Chrome.png

Screenshot_20230205_203647_Chrome.png

Are one of you in another country by chance?

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5 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

I'm well aware of credit card fees charged generically to businesses, I'm saying that doesn't add up in this instance because PayPal themselves is taking in the 3.5 percent fee when paid using a normal G&S payment, to my understanding anyways, Paypal does not tack on a 3 percent CC fee and then differ that to the seller, and then charge an additional 3.5 percent fee for themselves. My understanding right now is if I send you 1000 dollars via G&S, Paypal collects their 3.5 percent fee and keeps it, where as if I send you the same amount via F&F, I get charged 3.5 percent from the CC and Paypal gets nothing, effectively rendering a free service with no gain basically.

It wouldn't make a lot of sense unless there exist evidence that Paypal is charge effectively 7 percent, According to this anyways, their fee is still 3.5 percent for a normal fee https://www.salecalc.com/paypal?p=1000&l=us&r=0&e=0&f=0&m=1&c=0

I'm unaware of my CC itself charging me any fees via my statements either, but I don't know how the entire thing is handled no. 

When you pay someone using Goods & Services, they do not receive the full amount that you have paid.  PayPal will show them that full amount, then subtract their fees from it, getting PayPal off the hook for whatever they have to pay for CC processing and pocketing anything in excess.  In the case of bank/debit/balance transfers, that's 100% gravy to them.  I'm not sure why you're not understanding that and instead believe that I'm saying that PayPal is double charging fees somewhere.  They're not.  They're getting whatever their normal percentage fee for a transaction is from one part of the transaction or the other in almost every transaction run through their site.  In the case of Friends & Family, they'll do it to the sender when they're not using a method that doesn't cost them money (in your case, credit cards).  In the case of Goods & Services, the receiver is taking the hit, regardless of how you choose to send your money; if you're using a credit card, that just means PayPal gets less out of the transaction, not that it costs the receiver more.

You're right in that whatever fees PayPal is charging/deducting they keep.  However, in the case of credit card transactions, they're using at least a chunk of that (if not all, depending on the type of card) to cover their own expenses for processing that payment.  There aren't any extra fees involved, just the one, but it's going to come out of someone other than PayPal's pocket 100% of the time if PayPal gets charged a fee to pull/transfer the money (as is the case with credit cards, but not the case with bank transfers, debit transfers, or existing PayPal balance transfers).

Unless you have some sort of "membership fee," "maintenance fee," etc. from your credit card provider, you aren't going to get hit with any fees whatsoever for using it.  However, that gas station you just paid at?  They are.  The convenience store you got milk at?  They are.  Ever wonder why gas stations started advertising both a cash price and a card price?  It's because it costs them nothing to process a cash transaction, but they'll lose out on part of what they're getting from you if you process it via a card.  In every case you don't pay any extra fees, but every merchant you transact with does.

Get it now?  Can't imagine how I could make that any clearer.

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50 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

When you pay someone using Goods & Services, they do not receive the full amount that you have paid.  PayPal will show them that full amount, then subtract their fees from it, getting PayPal off the hook for whatever they have to pay for CC processing and pocketing anything in excess.  In the case of bank/debit/balance transfers, that's 100% gravy to them.  I'm not sure why you're not understanding that and instead believe that I'm saying that PayPal is double charging fees somewhere.  They're not.  They're getting whatever their normal percentage fee for a transaction is from one part of the transaction or the other in almost every transaction run through their site.  In the case of Friends & Family, they'll do it to the sender when they're not using a method that doesn't cost them money (in your case, credit cards).  In the case of Goods & Services, the receiver is taking the hit, regardless of how you choose to send your money; if you're using a credit card, that just means PayPal gets less out of the transaction, not that it costs the receiver more.

You're right in that whatever fees PayPal is charging/deducting they keep.  However, in the case of credit card transactions, they're using at least a chunk of that (if not all, depending on the type of card) to cover their own expenses for processing that payment.  There aren't any extra fees involved, just the one, but it's going to come out of someone other than PayPal's pocket 100% of the time if PayPal gets charged a fee to pull/transfer the money (as is the case with credit cards, but not the case with bank transfers, debit transfers, or existing PayPal balance transfers).

Unless you have some sort of "membership fee," "maintenance fee," etc. from your credit card provider, you aren't going to get hit with any fees whatsoever for using it.  However, that gas station you just paid at?  They are.  The convenience store you got milk at?  They are.  Ever wonder why gas stations started advertising both a cash price and a card price?  It's because it costs them nothing to process a cash transaction, but they'll lose out on part of what they're getting from you if you process it via a card.  In every case you don't pay any extra fees, but every merchant you transact with does.

Get it now?  Can't imagine how I could make that any clearer.

Which is all fair, the point being that in the end if you use a CC, someone is getting nailed for 3.5 percent one way or another, it might as well be the option that offers protection via the service you are using, that's all. In my case I've ran into people who are unwilling to do it despite being willing to pay the fee, and this is pre taxes on this stuff, so that's always a big red flag. In general, I find it quite strange that even in groups that require G&S, that sellers don't just bake it into the price, it creates a sketchy vibe right from the start. If I want 175 and don't want to eat the fee, I'll just charge more without saying I did to keep it all simple.

Edited by goldenpp72
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2 hours ago, Mega Tank said:
  2 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

I'm not a fan of F&F payments either, but if there's legitimate trust between two people, that's often the easiest way to get it done, and if you're transferring your own money with no fees, there's no downside. 

 

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

You guys aren't telling me anything I don't already know.  The only people that I will do F&F with are actual F&F, so you're not saving me any headache.  I'm just willing to admit that it's a legitimate option under the right circumstances or willingness to accept risk even if I don't use it myself 99% of the time.  Everybody should always be using G&S with anybody that they don't have 100% trust in.  However, some people have that level of trust with people they don't actually know IRL.  I know it's not likely intentional, but any rebuttal of F&F directed at me is essentially going to be a straw man argument, as I'm not saying anyone should use it, just pointing out the circumstances under which it's appropriate to do so.

Yes, there is. You completely missed the entire point I was trying to make. I would have preferred the item, but I didn't have to go through the mess of filing a claim with USPS or the seller, which vanished, so in the end from a financial perspective, I was easily refunded, no fuss. Had I paid F&F, I would have been out the $ and the item. So yes, there is a downside.

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1 hour ago, Mega Tank said:

 I have had people try to push F&F here and I refuse….

“Push” I feel personally attacked.
I won’t be using g&s payments since Uncle Sam is sticking his nose into my hobby selling.

@darkchylde28 I’ve actually thought about going back to requesting money order payment here. I hear so much flak for requesting f&f here I’m ready to throw in the towel on PayPal. 
 

To be fair anyone that’s been here any amount of time pretty much trust I’m good for it. Ive made $$$$ sales f&f here. 
 

I do understand not wanting to pay f&f. Shits scary. I just don’t understand why people get so bent. If you scared just move on, your moneys no good here 😂

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4 minutes ago, Mega Tank said:

 

Yes, there is. You completely missed the entire point I was trying to make. I would have preferred the item, but I didn't have to go through the mess of filing a claim with USPS or the seller, which vanished, so in the end from a financial perspective, I was easily refunded, no fuss. Had I paid F&F, I would have been out the $ and the item. So yes, there is a downside.

You missed the point. That person was not your friend or your family. 

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20 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

“Push” I feel personally attacked.
I won’t be using g&s payments since Uncle Sam is sticking his nose into my hobby selling.

@darkchylde28 I’ve actually thought about going back to requesting money order payment here. I hear so much flak for requesting f&f here I’m ready to throw in the towel on PayPal. 
 

To be fair anyone that’s been here any amount of time pretty much trust I’m good for it. Ive made $$$$ sales f&f here. 
 

I do understand not wanting to pay f&f. Shits scary. I just don’t understand why people get so bent. If you scared just move on, your moneys no good here 😂

Money order's aren't particularly safe either, I imagine dealing with such methods here may be safer since the community is smaller and tighter, with a legacy, but if some new user signs up and is like F&F/Cashapp/MO only, then that's gonna be a big red flag. You basically need to have a reputation where losing it would be damaging before trusting someone, or a very established rapport with them, which is definitely not the case when dealing with say, FB people.

Case in point, I recently had a user contact me in a FB group and demanded Cashapp or bust, despite the group rules. I declined, made it clear my WTB post specified PayPal, he got upset, complained. Turns out he tried the same thing on about a dozen other users in the group, people proved not only his pictures were fake, but that he kept changing his living locations, and he was banned out of the group. It looked reasonable enough as well, I just am not one to be fooled with such things at this junction, and with economic conditions as they are, people are more desperate than usual to lift some free money.

If everyone was just on board with it, we'd all be getting scammed, as usual with any situation you have to navigate the risk with your own wisdom, thankfully, I have not been scammed as a buyer with them succeeding in the end, I have been screwed as a seller on maybe 2 occasions over the course of 15 years, but that's just how it goes sometimes. 

I'm very eager to scoop up the last dozen games I am missing, others are very eager to hit their goals, and scammers tend to put the price down low enough to be intriguing but not so low to be suspicious, it's becoming more and more difficult to manage it without simply saying, no protection, no dice. 

I had another odd instance occur about a year or so ago, person had a good reputation in a group, sold me a copy of Bubble Bobble 2 on the NES, I was excited to finally land it, waited a few days, suddenly I get a message that was like 10 paragraphs long about how much he loves this game, how much it will hurt to part with it, how attached he is with it, and if I would be willing to let him keep the money but exchange for other items. I said no, but said if he wants to keep the game he can simply refund the money. He found himself in a situation where he apparently really needed the money, but was unwilling to part with the item, resulting in him being barred from the group and ghosting me prior despite being reputable.

I'd be out near 1000 dollars had I trusted someone who was otherwise known to be trustworthy with credentials that day, it's simply unreasonable to think that the buyer should assume all the risk in a situation as such, that isn't how any modern country operates.

 

Edited by goldenpp72
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I don't want to read drama, but I saw the comment about the fees and F&F.

I don't keep money in paypal ever since I ditched selling on ebay when they cut me off for their own system before I stopped entirely.  I do use them either way to pay for anything on ebay and private.  Since nothing is in the account, and I left my secondary online only banking account linked to PP indirectly using a debit card (not routing/checking), I used that, and they just draw off that hitting me with no extra 3% credit processing fee or whatever is getting argued here.  F&F is free  as in FREE & FREE for both sides.

I'm fine doing F&F if I know the person isn't a shmuck and more so if I know that and we did something of a deal before.  A couple days ago I had someone that was afraid to ask for the fees so asked if I would just do the F&F, but as I only dealt once before and on a real cheap item I pre-calculated it, and said I got you, and paid the added $3-4 in fees and they were happy so win-win.

It's not a big deal, it's just a bigger risk.  I was fine on an item with free when it was like around say the $30 mark, but when I'm going at $100 for a parts machine I hope maybe with sheer stupid luck I can fix, nope, I want coverage. 😄

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15 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

 

I'd be out near 1000 dollars had I trusted someone who was otherwise known to be trustworthy with credentials that day. 

 

so in the end all the fuss is to help people who don’t know any better? Because nothing is ever 100%. No matter how trusted a seller might be. 

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13 minutes ago, docile tapeworm said:

so in the end all the fuss is to help people who don’t know any better? Because nothing is ever 100%. No matter how trusted a seller might be. 

The fuss is to make sure that intent is clear, if a person is willing to accept a valid G&S payment for an item, it will likely indicate within a 95 percent margin that they intend to conduct their business legitimately. A user who is unwilling to use that method (or equivalent) is now entering into 'toss a coin and hope' territory.

In the end, this is still a business transaction, recent tax requirements are forcing people who sell to keep track of records and sales now, which is a huge pain in the ass, but it is one I have started taking on. I did one for 2022 only to find out I didn't need to due to the delay, and hopefully that happens again this year, but it's part of the deal now. It's also why I want to just finish getting rid of my selling items, so I don't have to keep dealing with it.

Even though I'm part of the community and a hobbyist, I still understand if I'm selling something to you, I'm conducting business, and you're the customer. It's my responsibility to operate with a system that is designed to function for both of us a certain way. PayPal offers loose seller protection if you use them to ship labels as well, it is one of multiple viable methods to conduct legitimate business, and if you conduct a lot of business as such, they will send you a form just like eBay will.

I think a lot of people like to operate in this hobby as if it's a purely friendly thing where it's just a love of the collecting that drives us all, but it's best to leave those charming views at the door and conduct your business correctly in my mind, It has kept me out of trouble despite thousands of transactions almost universally, and I certainly can't be the only anecdote. I know how to package items correctly, when to insure, and how to send and receive payments in a way that is professional and safe, I don't really see why that expectation is unreasonable to be met, if the tax burden is too great, then increase your prices. There is a clear 'right and wrong' within business, and I have found myself favored in almost every altercation sans a couple, even winning some disputes with buyers on eBay, by simply operating within the range of legitimacy. 

Edited by goldenpp72
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1 hour ago, goldenpp72 said:

Which is all fair, the point being that in the end if you use a CC, someone is getting nailed for 3.5 percent one way or another, it might as well be the option that offers protection via the service you are using, that's all. In my case I've ran into people who are unwilling to do it despite being willing to pay the fee, and this is pre taxes on this stuff, so that's always a big red flag. In general, I find it quite strange that even in groups that require G&S, that sellers don't just bake it into the price, it creates a sketchy vibe right from the start. If I want 175 and don't want to eat the fee, I'll just charge more without saying I did to keep it all simple.

I've run into those people as well and just gone ahead and sent things via G&S with the fees added on, a note in the payment saying I'd added the fees, then mentioned that I added the fees when I messaged them to tell them the payment was sent.  To date I've not had one of those people reject the payment, but that was all pre-1099K times as well.  And you're absolutely right, if you want to get a certain amount after fees and it doesn't do anything crazy to the price, raising the price slightly to accommodate is exactly the route to go.

1 hour ago, Mega Tank said:

Yes, there is. You completely missed the entire point I was trying to make. I would have preferred the item, but I didn't have to go through the mess of filing a claim with USPS or the seller, which vanished, so in the end from a financial perspective, I was easily refunded, no fuss. Had I paid F&F, I would have been out the $ and the item. So yes, there is a downside.

You took a hurdler's leap over my point that there's no downside to using Friends & Family between Friends & Family.  The guy you interacted with was neither, so of course you were worried first and foremost about the stuff and the money you'd spent on it when they disappeared.  If you'd sent money to a friend or family member for something via F&F, I would certainly hope that your first concern would be their welfare versus "where's my stuff" then "how do I get my money back."  I've never once said people should just jump on the F&F bandwagon, so please, enough with the straw man arguments, because those aren't the points I'm making.

44 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I just hopped on the PP app to check, and:

Screenshot_2023-02-05-22-25-10-751.jpg

Screenshot_2023-02-05-22-26-04-278.jpg

That seems to be new.  They started charging a fee for putting balance money into your bank account immediately versus stretching it out over the course of 1-2 weeks a couple of months ago (or at least that's when I ran afoul of it), so perhaps that's when they started charging a fee for debit cards as well.  It used to be that both bank transfers as well as debit cards were fee free since PayPal operates as a bank and banks don't charge one another fees to push money back and forth.

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44 minutes ago, goldenpp72 said:

 

I think a lot of people like to operate in this hobby as if it's a purely friendly thing where it's just a love of the collecting that drives us all, but it's best to leave those charming views at the door and conduct your business correctly in my mind, It has kept me out of trouble despite thousands of transactions almost universally, and I certainly can't be the only anecdote. I know how to package items correctly, when to insure, and how to send and receive payments in a way that is professional and safe, I don't really see why that expectation is unreasonable to be met, if the tax burden is too great, then increase your prices. There is a clear 'right and wrong' within business, and I have found myself favored in almost every altercation sans a couple, even winning some disputes with buyers on eBay, by simply operating within the range of legitimacy. 

As far as packaging, shipping, clear communication and item condition I’m professional as any other, id say I go above and beyond. I’d bet the barn you could find anyone to disagree. Yes my g&s price is much higher compared to f&f. Not accepting g&s is not conducting business correctly and clearly in the wrong within business? I don’t understand the flak and why people make others business their own. I’m conducting business just fine the way I do it. I’ve never had a complaint. Never ripped anybody off, have been on the receiving end as a seller though. Part of the reason I only deal with f&f, seller protection.

raising the price of my g&s price isn’t even my issue. I don’t want the paper work.
 

Edited by docile tapeworm
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Administrator · Posted
4 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I've run into those people as well and just gone ahead and sent things via G&S with the fees added on, a note in the payment saying I'd added the fees, then mentioned that I added the fees when I messaged them to tell them the payment was sent.  To date I've not had one of those people reject the payment, but that was all pre-1099K times as well.  And you're absolutely right, if you want to get a certain amount after fees and it doesn't do anything crazy to the price, raising the price slightly to accommodate is exactly the route to go.

You took a hurdler's leap over my point that there's no downside to using Friends & Family between Friends & Family.  The guy you interacted with was neither, so of course you were worried first and foremost about the stuff and the money you'd spent on it when they disappeared.  If you'd sent money to a friend or family member for something via F&F, I would certainly hope that your first concern would be their welfare versus "where's my stuff" then "how do I get my money back."  I've never once said people should just jump on the F&F bandwagon, so please, enough with the straw man arguments, because those aren't the points I'm making.

That seems to be new.  They started charging a fee for putting balance money into your bank account immediately versus stretching it out over the course of 1-2 weeks a couple of months ago (or at least that's when I ran afoul of it), so perhaps that's when they started charging a fee for debit cards as well.  It used to be that both bank transfers as well as debit cards were fee free since PayPal operates as a bank and banks don't charge one another fees to push money back and forth.

I've been charged for F&F payments for an long as I can remember. I legit have always just known to mentally tack $2.5-5 onto any payment I send for the convenience. 

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5 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I've been charged for F&F payments for an long as I can remember. I legit have always just known to mentally tack $2.5-5 onto any payment I send for the convenience. 

Do you think it’s because you’re converting currency? For me, and it’s been like this for years, if I used my PayPal balance or bank account to pay F&F there was no fee for me with a US buyer. Credit card yes there was a fee. Actually now that I think about it, when I was making the black box set on NA a few people overseas would voluntarily try to send a F&F payment and brought the fee thing to my attention so could be currency even on a balance or bank account. I just told anyone overseas to do g&s payment after that. 

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Administrator · Posted
2 minutes ago, Johnnyboy113 said:

Do you think it’s because you’re converting currency? For me, and it’s been like this for years, if I used my PayPal balance or bank account to pay F&F there was no fee for me with a US buyer. Credit card yes there was a fee. Actually now that I think about it, when I was making the black box set on NA a few people overseas would voluntarily try to send a F&F payment and brought the fee thing to my attention so could be currency even on a balance or bank account. I just told anyone overseas to do g&s payment after that. 

Could easily be, yes. A lot of my purchases are from people in the States. Of course it's just another in the long list of fees I have to endure as a Canadian collector. Whatever you consider a game to be worth, assume I have to pay double. 

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2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Could easily be, yes. A lot of my purchases are from people in the States. Of course it's just another in the long list of fees I have to endure as a Canadian collector. Whatever you consider a game to be worth, assume I have to pay double. 

I know dude. I always felt for you on some of our old deals on NA cause of the conversation rate. I should have just drove the stuff up and had a beer with you at a leafs game lol.

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