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First CGC Submission and was left with questions


stdgrabbag

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I submitted my first game to CGC and when I got it back I was was left with a few questions about grading CIB games and what is considered complete and what should be graded. Not sure if this have been discussed before but I have a specific example. 

So I submitted a nice copy of TMNT 3  for NES. The game is complete with poster, registration card, and Nintendo power flyer. they only graded the box, cart, and manual. There is only mention of the NP flyer and the registration card on the back of the label. When I scan the QR code the poster is only mentioned there. I feel a bit frustrated that not all of the contents that are specific to the game are physically listed. I also would have thought that they would have been graded as well at the very least the poster. Reason I say that is that I believe the poster and reg card and marked to match the box flap KON-NES-US-3. correct me if I am wrong. So shouldn't these be graded as well? And the age old debate of is it actually complete if you only have the 3 components? I have a legend of Zelda graded that has a grade on the strategy book that came with it. would it still be complete without it? It does seem the grade is still a weighted average of the 3 main components. let me know your thought or share a link if this has already been discussed.

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Remember that you are paying for their service and you are under their grading criteria. If you’re not happy with their criteria of a “CIB” then you can:

- not submit your CIBs to them

- wait until they change their criteria that makes it mandatory for other factory pamphlets to be present in the box

- wait for another grading company to come along that has the criteria to your liking. 
 

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Hi! I'm here acting on behalf of GRADE CORP customer support!

Grading all those bits and pieces is a lot of work and a complete NIGHTMARE when it comes to assessing the true completeness of any one of the THOUSANDS of different CIB games and endless variations thereof.

Dude to this, grading companies take your money and slap a number on only the MOST easily graded and catalogued items of a CIB, namely the box, manual and game.

It's quicker, easier, less likely to lead to mistakes, and therefore more profitable.

Thank you for your custom! 😘

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well on CGC's reference guide under key terms they discuss game specific inserts and game codes to identify a game and all its components. To discuss these terms and explain them but then not include them on the grading label or grade them seems inconsistent with their message of being the "Ultimate source for video game collecting". In comics if a coupon is cut out of a comic page and doesn't affect the story it greatly affects the grade and value regardless of the condition it is in otherwise. I feel this should also be the standard for CIB. If you gonna get it graded and it missing a part of it that is stamped with a code that is tied to be box then it should not be considered complete and noted some how. it should also be noted that and game is 100% complete. 

I do realize that I did pay for their service. I to a degree am not happy with the attention to detail they gave the components that are included and marked on the label. I am fine with the grades they say. I just saying your gonna sell yourself as a leading expert and your attention to detail I would expect you to live up to that standard.

I am not sure if I will get anything graded again. I just wanted to bring this to peoples attention and have a discussion about CIB grading.

Thanks

https://www.cgcvideogames.com/reference-guide

 

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1 hour ago, stdgrabbag said:

To discuss these terms and explain them but then not include them on the grading label or grade them seems inconsistent with their message of being the "Ultimate source for video game collecting".

I don't think you can hold them to that, the term "Ultimate source for video game collecting" is inherently subjective and legally meaningless. Even from a general standpoint, it's hard to parse exactly what such a statement would mean...

They are clearly not a source for collecting video games themselves, they don't sell games. They are hardly a source of information for collecting games either, there is a surface level amount of very basic information available in their collecting guide.

I don't think there is any angle you could look at that statement and arrive at the conclusion that CGC are indeed the "Ultimate source for video game collecting", regardless of the quality of their grading service.

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I too am a 100% complete cib collector and was disappointed when I found Wata didn’t grade all components for CIB. No grading company does. Heck, one of them just gives you an embossed coupon that lists the components. However, with Wata, they do list all the components on their online database and do grade Game specific inserts, such as the Zelda map you mentioned. Is the TMNT 3 poster specific to that game or is it a general poster?

Also, it’s safe to go ahead and call yourself the leading expert for CIB knowledge on this forum too, just like the grading companies call themselves whatever TF they want because words don’t matter anymore.

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1 hour ago, stdgrabbag said:

I am not sure if I will get anything graded again.

 

I hope you won't, since you just found out they provide absolutely no added value, especially with used items. They provide in fact a very negative value here, as I want to see all the contents and make sure which revision/variant they are (if you're a PC collector doing different regions, you will understand, but it works for console games too).

If I need that specific variant with a newer registration card or that came with a different leaflet or with a different print of the disc - and the box is the same for all variants, that stupid plastic case makes it impossible to check anything. Besides, it's used, so it's damaged already. Let me see the dang contents.

Grading used games, a whole new frontier of throwing your money in a pizza oven.

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When it comes to comic books, there are titles that have variants that include inserts. The most popular is tied to Mark Jewelers just because those were limited to select stores found on military bases. However, neither CGC nor CBCS have changed the way they graded those issues, nor have they called any other variants incomplete. Instead they marked it as a variant that has said insert included.

With them saying that you have a complete print variant of a very fun NES port. 🙂

In this case, lets say that the Mark Jewelers insert variant also had a lower price on the cover. As a way for buyers to know which one came from military bases, and which ones haven't. Similar to the print run variant you have submitted, there is a chance that neither CGC nor CBCS would have graded those if the flyer was missing. Just like how CGC would have given your manual a lower grade if Raphael was cut out.

However... I have noticed that they have "Marvel Spider-Man: Miles Morales" listed as "Marvel's Spider Man 3: Miles Morales" in PS5 portion of their reference guide. Which is forgiven because we have a Switch page that has "Dragon Quest XI" listed as "Dragon's Quest XI". While page 8 states that "CIB" is the game, manual, and packaging. Simply because, as an example, not every print run of every NES title came with the additional inserts.

Which goes back to the similarities on how they grade variant comic books to how they grade CIB NES titles. They grade what is standard, and they also note the rest as if it was a variant comic book.

Now if you want to define lazy... I want to point out that VGA has a history of not labelling every Japan exclusive variant/title as a "Japanese version". Yet they have done it for select titles regardless they were known to be Japan exclusives. With the one I submitted being both that and a limited sticker variant. Which is something CAS, UKG, Wata, and maybe CGC would have noted on their labels. While they do not change their grading style.

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24 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said:

Is the TMNT 3 poster specific to that game or is it a general poster?

This is one of those reasons why their reference guide (page 8-9) says the following:

Complete in Box (CIB) – A game state that includes
the original box/case, cartridge/disc and manual.

Other CIB collectors have said that inserts (like posters) are tied to different print runs of certain games, and not every game made by [insert company here] during the NES days.

It is also why I have chosen you to deal with this burden for me, with 2017 being an example why. 😉

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Unfortunately, video games, certainly CIB video games, make for a rather poor candidate for a collectable to be graded, IMO.

Sealed games are already a multifaceted and complicated item to grade, due to the sheer number of games, systems, print runs and variants to keep track of. I mean, compared to something comparatively more simple to grade, such as a baseball card or a coin, a sealed video game is potentially FAR more difficult to document and assess.

But at the very least you don't have to even consider the CONTENTS of the box before you slap it in an acrylic box and put a number on it... Grading CIB is everything difficult about grading sealed, but multiplied by 10.

And, I know it's none of my DAMN business, but I am always basically cool with the IDEA of grading a sealed game seeing as most won't be opened anyway, and you can appreciate a graded sealed game in exactly the same way as you would appreciate it ungraded. BUT grading a CIB is a different thing, you are paying to never again experience the actual object of desire you have obtained, whether that be playing the game or simply flicking through the manual or looking at the poster.

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3 hours ago, stdgrabbag said:

well on CGC's reference guide under key terms they discuss game specific inserts and game codes to identify a game and all its components. To discuss these terms and explain them but then not include them on the grading label or grade them seems inconsistent with their message of being the "Ultimate source for video game collecting". In comics if a coupon is cut out of a comic page and doesn't affect the story it greatly affects the grade and value regardless of the condition it is in otherwise. I feel this should also be the standard for CIB. If you gonna get it graded and it missing a part of it that is stamped with a code that is tied to be box then it should not be considered complete and noted some how. it should also be noted that and game is 100% complete. 

I do realize that I did pay for their service. I to a degree am not happy with the attention to detail they gave the components that are included and marked on the label. I am fine with the grades they say. I just saying your gonna sell yourself as a leading expert and your attention to detail I would expect you to live up to that standard.

I am not sure if I will get anything graded again. I just wanted to bring this to peoples attention and have a discussion about CIB grading.

Thanks

https://www.cgcvideogames.com/reference-guide

 

I think you’re misinterpreting the “expert level of grading” as “you shall do whatever I tell you to do, grading company!”

It’s certainly debatable of what makes a CIB actually complete? However, the grading company doesn’t have to answer that question, but to advertise what they will and won’t grade in CIB form. They are not in business to cater for literally everyone on this earth, but only for a specific niche group who is willing to pay for their services repeatedly.

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11 hours ago, GPX said:

I think you’re misinterpreting the “expert level of grading” as “you shall do whatever I tell you to do, grading company!”

I was thinking the same thing.

@stdgrabbag had stated that Turtles III is a complete print variant. And yet, has managed to compare it to how a standard print comic book is graded. 😶

Plus the following:

Qualified – A video game that has either been restored in some way or has incorrect or missing parts. Signaling something significant is wrong with the game.

So long story short, NES titles and their content is a literal rabbit hole. And arguing about CIB grading is a great reason why many should not shop for used video games in Japan. 😅

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This topic is becoming more and more combative now that WATA has updated their CIB criteria to exclude GSIs by default (granted, $50 + $40 GSI upcharge is still cheapest in the hobby).

That said, at the very least the poster *is* in there and can be proved with a scan. If you're particularly worried of evidence disappearing, I'd just print off the info page and keep it with the game (including the cert # so it's clear they're paired).

Anyway, grading is a fickle thing and if their methodology isn't for you, then just don't submit I guess. 🤷‍♂️ lol

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Thank you everyone for the feed back and the great discussion. CIB is definitely a mess if it be graded. though the more "complete" a game is in a specific condition the more someone will pay. This of course to the right person or collector could want a person to protect their "investment" through one of these services. ugh! It is a lot to think about and all the different angles. I guess its just going to take take for the market to determine how CIB grading will go or be valued.  

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21 hours ago, Tyree_Cooper said:

I hope you won't, since you just found out they provide absolutely no added value

While it's true that the item itself is unchanged and has no additional intrinsic qualities, grading a CIB does add perceived value with an approximate guarantee of condition. Even more so if the GSIs are 9.0+. people bid more because they know they're getting what they want.

Just my $0.02

Edited by inasuma
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@stdgrabbag when I got my pokemon silver graded they noted everything in the box, graded my inserts but forgot to put the grades on the label, it's listed on the cert verification on their website. 

 Really interesting this is the 3rd different way I've seen a CIB graded by them. Like what's the process CGC because y'all don't seem to know either. 

Edited by mlbfan10
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