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Are we on the brink of World War III?


RH
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WW III  

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  1. 1. Are we on the brink of World War III?

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Member · Posted

I have yet to find the time to do further research but since my info came from an old news article that was about 25 years ago, I thought it was worth a mention before getting the full details.  If I get the time today, I’ll try to research this further.

Anyway, I was watching C-SPAN yesterday before Biden’s address and they mentioned that the day previous, a caller claimed that the West (Europe, maybe NATO and definitely the US) promised to protect Ukraine from such an event. The trade was that Ukraine freely, 100% gave up all of their nuclear weapons in exchange for  protection from invasion.

After that call, the C-SPAN team did their research and found a news article which they read on air, where yes, this did happen and this was shortly after the end of the Cold War.

So here are my questions. First, what has happened treaty-wise sense then? If nothing, the West is absolutely not living up to it’s end of the bargain. It would make any nuclear country think twice before ever handing up it’s weapons because “the US and Allie’s lied about it’s protections” with Ukraine. Second, if that treaty has fallen apart, I’m curious about what happened.

I am definitely not pro-war but I 100% believe every person, group, state, etc. 100% should keep their words. No, I don’t want American’s (or anyone for that matter) to die in a conflict that especially feels so foreign, but treaties are made for mutual benefit and if we don’t keep them, we just show the world we’re liars and alliances will only be kept when convenient. That is wrong in my book.

But as I said, I need to research this further. Maybe there was a time limit to the agreement or Ukraine did something to break the treaty. I still thought it was worth mentioning as a potential facet to this discussion.

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Member · Posted
6 hours ago, Estil said:

Dude that's not funny.  How'd you like to live in a country where they were just minding your own business, not bothering anyone...and some neighboring big bully is trying to invade you for no apparent reason, other than to be a big bully? 😞 

Who said it was funny?

6 hours ago, Estil said:

Surely Putin can't figure on anything GOOD coming out of this?

Obviously he does. Otherwise why is he doing it?

5 hours ago, Estil said:

I don't see how...

The article says how.

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Member · Posted
23 minutes ago, Link said:

Who said it was funny?

Obviously he does. Otherwise why is he doing it?

The article says how.

You mean you're telling me with a straight face that if this plays out a certain way, Putin will actually be seen as some sort of hero or good guy in the international community?  As my generation would say, dream on.

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1 hour ago, RH said:

I have yet to find the time to do further research but since my info came from an old news article that was about 25 years ago, I thought it was worth a mention before getting the full details.  If I get the time today, I’ll try to research this further.

Anyway, I was watching C-SPAN yesterday before Biden’s address and they mentioned that the day previous, a caller claimed that the West (Europe, maybe NATO and definitely the US) promised to protect Ukraine from such an event. The trade was that Ukraine freely, 100% gave up all of their nuclear weapons in exchange for  protection from invasion.

After that call, the C-SPAN team did their research and found a news article which they read on air, where yes, this did happen and this was shortly after the end of the Cold War.

So here are my questions. First, what has happened treaty-wise sense then? If nothing, the West is absolutely not living up to it’s end of the bargain. It would make any nuclear country think twice before ever handing up it’s weapons because “the US and Allie’s lied about it’s protections” with Ukraine. Second, if that treaty has fallen apart, I’m curious about what happened.

I am definitely not pro-war but I 100% believe every person, group, state, etc. 100% should keep their words. No, I don’t want American’s (or anyone for that matter) to die in a conflict that especially feels so foreign, but treaties are made for mutual benefit and if we don’t keep them, we just show the world we’re liars and alliances will only be kept when convenient. That is wrong in my book.

But as I said, I need to research this further. Maybe there was a time limit to the agreement or Ukraine did something to break the treaty. I still thought it was worth mentioning as a potential facet to this discussion.

The size of Nato in Eastern Europe has been a concern of the Soviet Union and Russia for decades. Senior George Bush promised Mikhail Gorbichev the U.S./Nato would not go into Eastern Europe. The U.S./Nato planted the seeds for this entire conflict.

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Member · Posted
6 minutes ago, Californication said:

The size of Nato in Eastern Europe has been a concern of the Soviet Union and Russia for decades. Senior George Bush promised Mikhail Gorbichev the U.S./Nato would not go into Eastern Europe. The U.S./Nato planted the seeds for this entire conflict.

It should not be up to Russia to decide who is and isn't allowed entry into NATO. Russian manipulation, bulling and outright aggression has pushed the countries on their periphery into chasing after NATO/EU membership.

I cannot stand the victim blaming and disregard for the sovereign decisions of independent nations that is inherent to these Russia simping arguments.

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Member · Posted
1 hour ago, RH said:

I have yet to find the time to do further research but since my info came from an old news article that was about 25 years ago, I thought it was worth a mention before getting the full details.  If I get the time today, I’ll try to research this further.

Anyway, I was watching C-SPAN yesterday before Biden’s address and they mentioned that the day previous, a caller claimed that the West (Europe, maybe NATO and definitely the US) promised to protect Ukraine from such an event. The trade was that Ukraine freely, 100% gave up all of their nuclear weapons in exchange for  protection from invasion.

After that call, the C-SPAN team did their research and found a news article which they read on air, where yes, this did happen and this was shortly after the end of the Cold War.

So here are my questions. First, what has happened treaty-wise sense then? If nothing, the West is absolutely not living up to it’s end of the bargain. It would make any nuclear country think twice before ever handing up it’s weapons because “the US and Allie’s lied about it’s protections” with Ukraine. Second, if that treaty has fallen apart, I’m curious about what happened.

I am definitely not pro-war but I 100% believe every person, group, state, etc. 100% should keep their words. No, I don’t want American’s (or anyone for that matter) to die in a conflict that especially feels so foreign, but treaties are made for mutual benefit and if we don’t keep them, we just show the world we’re liars and alliances will only be kept when convenient. That is wrong in my book.

But as I said, I need to research this further. Maybe there was a time limit to the agreement or Ukraine did something to break the treaty. I still thought it was worth mentioning as a potential facet to this discussion.

Actually it is RUSSIA who is violating their treaty with the Ukraine in this situation. When the Iron Curtain fell and Ukraine agreed to return their Nuclear stockpile to Russia (obviously HUGE mistake there), they were given assurances in a treaty signed by both parties that Russia would NEVER invade them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Russia's behaviour has been and continues to be absolutely abhorrent. It's modern Imperialism, nothing less.

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30 minutes ago, OptOut said:

It should not be up to Russia to decide who is and isn't allowed entry into NATO. Russian manipulation, bulling and outright aggression has pushed the countries on their periphery into chasing after NATO/EU membership.

I cannot stand the victim blaming and disregard for the sovereign decisions of independent nations that is inherent to these Russia simping arguments.

Nato is a political device. The inclusion of Ukraine is a threat to Russia.The U.S. was ready to shoot nuclear weapons when the USSR was planning on going to Cuba. This is a very similar scenario.

Agreed, Russia should not have invaded Ukraine. The point is the U.S. and Nato created the situation that Russia would have to respond to.

Edit: also, it's really weird to see someone use the words simp and victim blaming when talking about international politics, just saying.

Edited by Californication
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Member · Posted
5 hours ago, Estil said:

Well there were all these economic sanctions and formal condemnations from the international community...what else realistically can be done (outside of Russia/Ukraine themselves I mean)?

Right now, nothing. Ukraine is hosed, and Putin will walk away from this with a big chunk of Ukraine territory.

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Member · Posted
4 minutes ago, Californication said:

Nato is a political device. The inclusion of Ukraine is a threat to Russia.The U.S. was ready to shoot nuclear weapons when the USSR was planning on going to Cuba. This is a very similar scenario.

The logic of the Cold War did NOT need to continue into the present day, and it is Russia's own self-fulfilled trajectory (at least since the inception of the Putin leadership) that has gotten us to this point.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the West was ready and willing to reintegrate Russia and the rest of the former Soviet states into the global community.

Indeed we can see just how successful such integration has been for such states as Poland, the Baltic States and former Yugoslavia, which are now proud members of the European Union.

There is absolutely NO reason Russia could not themselves also have integrated well alongside such other states, or even China for crying out loud! Just look at how well China is doing in terms of economic and political security, by buying into globalisation.

But no, it was RUSSIA under the throttling authority of Putin that chose to go masquerading as the USSR 2.0, devestating their own economy and fostering IMMENSE ill-will from almost every other nation on earth they haven't either invaded or bought off.

 

So no, I refuse to accept the argument that this is NATO's fault, the US, Ukraine or anyone else apart from Russia. Russia could have been a MEMBER of NATO by now, if only they hadn't fallen to the dictatorship of Putin and the oligarchs.

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You are talking about the U.S. and Nato like they are some positive influence on the world. You do realize the U.S. starts more wars than any other country, right?

Russia isn't in Nato because they don't believe it's in their self interest. This is all a game of power. The U.S. overthrows governments and starts wars all over the world because it thinks it is maintaining/increasing it's power. Russia is doing the same. I am not sympathetic to Russia, this is the way of the world and the U.S./Nato escalated this entire situation. 

 

 

 

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Member · Posted
Just now, Californication said:

You are talking about the U.S. and Nato like they are some positive influence on the world. You do realize the U.S. starts more wars than any other country, right?

Russia isn't in Nato because they don't believe it's in their self interest. This is all a game of power. The U.S. overthrows governments and starts wars all over the world because it thinks it is maintaining/increasing it's power. Russia is doing the same. I am not sympathetic to Russia, this is the way of the world and the U.S./Nato escalated this entire situation. 

 

 

 

NATO is a mutual defense treaty organisation, it IS an inherently good thing for sustaining peace, as it has done so for the last 60 years!

The USA unilaterally invading countries all over the world is nothing to do with NATO. The Iraq war wasn't a NATO operation, neither was Vietnam.

 

I have plenty of contempt to spare for American military aggression and neo-colonialism, but this is not the time nor place for that. This is on Russia, I will keep hammering on that point.

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Member · Posted
1 hour ago, Estil said:

You mean you're telling me with a straight face that if this plays out a certain way, Putin will actually be seen as some sort of hero or good guy in the international community?  

What? 🤦‍♀️ No, lol. Are you "telling me with a straight face" he gives a rat's ass about that?

"something GOOD coming out of this", for him, is likely power, control, territory, natural resources. And I'm saying yes, he does see that. If he didn't anticipate a desired result from these actions, he wouldn't take them. 

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Member · Posted
47 minutes ago, OptOut said:

The logic of the Cold War did NOT need to continue into the present day, and it is Russia's own self-fulfilled trajectory (at least since the inception of the Putin leadership) that has gotten us to this point.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the West was ready and willing to reintegrate Russia and the rest of the former Soviet states into the global community.

Indeed we can see just how successful such integration has been for such states as Poland, the Baltic States and former Yugoslavia, which are now proud members of the European Union.

There is absolutely NO reason Russia could not themselves also have integrated well alongside such other states, or even China for crying out loud! Just look at how well China is doing in terms of economic and political security, by buying into globalisation.

But no, it was RUSSIA under the throttling authority of Putin that chose to go masquerading as the USSR 2.0, devestating their own economy and fostering IMMENSE ill-will from almost every other nation on earth they haven't either invaded or bought off.

 

So no, I refuse to accept the argument that this is NATO's fault, the US, Ukraine or anyone else apart from Russia. Russia could have been a MEMBER of NATO by now, if only they hadn't fallen to the dictatorship of Putin and the oligarchs.

While I understand and agree with the sentiment of what your saying, I don’t think it’s actually possible for Russia to join NATO. NATO was actually created to counter the expansion of Russia. 

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Member · Posted
3 minutes ago, phart010 said:

While I understand and agree with the sentiment of what your saying, I don’t think it’s actually possible for Russia to join NATO. NATO was actually created to counter the expansion of Russia. 

Well the history on this matter is quite complicated, but it is worth noting that the idea of Russia joining NATO is FAR from new, and has been floated by leaders on both side of the divide over the years.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–NATO_relations

Indeed up until their annexation of Crimea in 2014, there was an active partnership between NATO and the Russian federation to cooperate on matters of international security.

So, as farfetched as the idea may seem, there is an alternative version of 2022 where Russia actually DID become a part of NATO, or very close to it.

Unfortunately, we are stuck in this hell dimension instead. 😩

 

 

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If you are blaming anyone except Russia/Putin for all of this I'm sorry but you are way off base. Russia (as a country, not the citizens specifically) is solely responsible for their own actions. Their hand isn't forced to do ANYTHING. This is simply tyranny from Putin and his clan. 

For example, the argument about US/NATO putting forces in Ukraine. So the argument here is what, Russia saying "Well they made me do it!". Bullshit. It's like when a rapist says "well she was wearing a short skirt, I couldn't resist!". Fucking disgusting. 

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Member · Posted
3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Let the people decide, the people living in the disputed areas.

Kind of hard to say the Russian military performing the invasion is "living in the disputed areas." Especially since the majority of what they're targeting is outside the disputed areas.

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Member · Posted

Absolutely crazy some of the responses here. Good job OptOut in actually standing up to some of these crazy comments.

I guess there are still Hitler sympathisers in the world so I shouldn’t be shocked to see Putin ones. 

People blaming the US/NATO what a joke. I’ve really seen it all now in regards to this war.

Maybe take a moment and think of the lives lost and are about to be lost from this demented psychopath who is fighting a war even their owns citizens don’t want but can’t say anything in fear of being killed.

This attack is a human tragedy and I personally don’t think it will stop with Ukraine.

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2 hours ago, Brickman said:

Absolutely crazy some of the responses here. Good job OptOut in actually standing up to some of these crazy comments.

I guess there are still Hitler sympathisers in the world so I shouldn’t be shocked to see Putin ones. 

People blaming the US/NATO what a joke. I’ve really seen it all now in regards to this war.

Maybe take a moment and think of the lives lost and are about to be lost from this demented psychopath who is fighting a war even their owns citizens don’t want but can’t say anything in fear of being killed.

This attack is a human tragedy and I personally don’t think it will stop with Ukraine.

Years of terrible right wing indoctrination has aggressively lowered the IQ of a significant portion of our population. 
 

Not specifically happening here, but The only way for right wing grifters to cut through the cesspool of low effort trolling, scams and racism that is conservative media, is to say more outrageous things-then rejoice that you “trolled” the media/people when they report on it. Hence why you have the MAGA die hards saying they would rather be Russian, them a Democrat. I mean, our previous President was actually praising Putin while insulting our current President. Lol. 
 

GOT EM’!!!! 
 

That unfortunately translates from not just Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity, but to most corners of the internet. 
 

I mean, the fact that Russia is a white, christian ethnostate also helps because that is the ultimate goal for the USA of the racists we have in American society. 
 

Men that aren't confident in themselves (or their masculinity if one chooses to define themselves that way) need a Strong father type figure or else they feel worthless, or confused about their sexuality. Putin fills that role because of propaganda. Trump did too for some reason, when in reality he is a pathetic, out of shape, whiner. Its super weird. 
 

Anyways, if Trump never got elected I don’t think Ukraine would even be invaded at this point. 

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Member · Posted
8 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Same cost as the other chunks he walked away with. A bunch of condemnation and sanctions, neither of which he gives a rat's ass about.

Soooo this is basically like what you said about how Barry Bonds can somehow live with himself with his FAKE records and everyone hating him (even long before he went to the PED dark size he was a big jerk right from the start...I think even his fellow college teammates tried to vote him off the island eh, I mean team).

I mean yeah, I get people have different ideas of right and wrong and all that but I still don't for the life of me understand how Putin could possibly think this move will make him look good in any way.

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4 minutes ago, Estil said:

Soooo this is basically like what you said about how Barry Bonds can somehow live with himself with his FAKE records and everyone hating him (even long before he went to the PED dark size he was a big jerk right from the start...I think even his fellow college teammates tried to vote him off the island eh, I mean team).

I mean yeah, I get people have different ideas of right and wrong and all that but I still don't for the life of me understand how Putin could possibly think this move will make him look good in any way.

Most Giants Fans like Myself love Barry Bonds. So not “everyone”. 
 

Met him at the Olympic Club when I was golfing with my Cousin in Law and he was a great guy. 

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