Are we on the brink of World War III?

[Reed Rothchild | 9,520]

Is there an argument here?  We're both agreeing support is (relatively) high for a ill-advised/disastrous campaign where it's pretty black and white as to who the bad guy is.

But any polling coming out of Russia has to have caveats attached.  And any video has to be recognized as potential propaganda.

[guillavoie | 1,208]

4 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Is there an argument here?  We're both agreeing support is (relatively) high for a ill-advised/disastrous campaign where it's pretty black and white as to who the bad guy is.

But any polling coming out of Russia has to have caveats attached.  And any video has to be recognized as potential propaganda.

It seems like Mr. Headlines can't keep up with a one on one conversation, but you got to admire his skills at cruising through the experts' opinions.

[avatar! | 1,809]

23 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Is there an argument here?  We're both agreeing support is (relatively) high for a ill-advised/disastrous campaign where it's pretty black and white as to who the bad guy is.

? I think, or at least hope, we can all agree Mr Putin is evil and clearly the "bad guy" here.

What I'm confused about is why you seem to think that Putin is not very well supported in Russia - you seem to argue that independent polls done in Russia are wrong for some reason, and you also seem to question experts who conclude that Putin is overall very respected. I agree with you that news directly from the Kremlin is 100% suspect, but these polls were independent. Although, as of now, I don't know of any independent news in Russia, I think Putin has destroyed it all

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/04/05/russia-media-independence-putin/

Edited April 7, 2022 by avatar!

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

14 minutes ago, guillavoie said:

It seems like Mr. Headlines can't keep up with a one on one conversation, but you got to admire his skills at cruising through the experts' opinions.

Are you an expert on who is experts on things? I think not, so you arent expert enough on experts expertise so you can’t comment  

[Jeevan | 8,910]

47 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Again, experts are saying one thing, and Reed Rothchild another

Maybe you don't know any "real numbers" but experts from within and outside of Russia sure do. His current approval rating is 83%. Saying things like "it's not 100% accurate" and "we don't really know for sure" are meaningless statements.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/896181/putin-approval-rating-russia/

It's very well known that during times of crisis and war, approval ratings for leaders often skyrocket. That sure happened to GWB and numerous other USA presidents. Russians are not Americans, they have different sensibilities and the general populations have always liked "strong" leaders like Putin.

 

[Kguillemette | 1,544]

It's hard to trust any information coming out of a country that doesn't have free press.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,520]

On 2/24/2022 at 5:50 PM, fcgamer said:

Well with the situation in Ukraine, some of the regions are filled with ethnic Russian people, who quite likely want to be Russian. Then there's the economic situation at play as well, those are the issues that are at the heart of the Russian situation.

TBH, I can't say that I necessarily disagree with Putin and his ambitions here.

 

On 2/24/2022 at 5:50 PM, fcgamer said:

Well with the situation in Ukraine, some of the regions are filled with ethnic Russian people, who quite likely want to be Russian. Then there's the economic situation at play as well, those are the issues that are at the heart of the Russian situation.

TBH, I can't say that I necessarily disagree with Putin and his ambitions here.

 

On 2/25/2022 at 7:46 AM, fcgamer said:

Let the people decide, the people living in the disputed areas.

Well I'd say the jury's in:

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

I have a legit amazing respect for the Ukrainian people. They showed up to fight. Scrappy. 
 

You’re welcome for the javelins btw.

 

I wonder how much they are because I could genuinely calculate how much I have donated in my tax money for one.  100k each?

Edited April 7, 2022 by MrWunderful

[Hammerfestus | 3,835]

[avatar! | 1,809]

36 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

I have a legit amazing respect for the Ukrainian people. They showed up to fight. Scrappy. 
 

You’re welcome for the javelins btw.

 

I wonder how much they are because I could genuinely calculate how much I have donated in my tax money for one.  100k each?

Manufactured by US weapons manufacturers Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, the Javelin costs $178,000, including the launch system and missile, according to the Pentagon's 2021 budget. Each replacement missile costs around $78,000

[JamesRobot | 5,798]

Not gonna lie.  I'd really like to fire one of those.  I of course wouldn't wish to be in their shoes but I'm a little envious of that particular aspect.  

[Tabonga | 2,317]

1 hour ago, JamesRobot said:

Not gonna lie.  I'd really like to fire one of those.  I of course wouldn't wish to be in their shoes but I'm a little envious of that particular aspect.  

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

OK so since I graduated high school in the year 2000, I have probably paid for at least 4 in my federal taxes. 
 

100% worth it if it is taking out Nazi Russian Scum. 

[Link | 2,709]

17 hours ago, avatar! said:

independent polls

I think the caveats that Reed mentioned are that these have not mentioned the culture of fear Putin has imposed (or resurrected, or maintained), people get disappeared there. So, many are gaslit into approving of what he does, or act like they do when not knowing 100% how trustworthy a scenario they are in. Others "don't wznt to think / argue about it" (and a similar attitude is present in America.) Watch out for spies. Like McCarthyism was here, and with less veneer of humanitarian concern on the part of the government. Of course investigative journalists have more to worry about than Ivan Ivanovich, but the repressive atmosphere hangs over all. Progressive resistance fighters are rarely the majority of the population yet are often eventually seen as guides of the arc of history. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

OK so since I graduated high school in the year 2000, I have probably paid for at least 4 in my federal taxes. 
 

100% worth it if it is taking out Nazi Russian Scum. 

You mean taking out the young innocent solders that are drafted to fight, are sent off to fight without knowing what the fight is actually about, innocent kids that are getting shot up, their lives cut short too early and for what? I bet it's not a decision they actually can honestly make, it's really sad.

[avatar! | 1,809]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

You mean taking out the young innocent solders that are drafted to fight, are sent off to fight without knowing what the fight is actually about, innocent kids that are getting shot up, their lives cut short too early and for what? I bet it's not a decision they actually can honestly make, it's really sad.

Young? most likely. Innocent? certainly some, but then again how do "innocent" people do this?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-bombs-fleeing-families-at-kramatorsk-train-station

Russian Troops Brag They Bombed Fleeing Families at Train Station

[avatar! | 1,809]

'The Day After' director addresses the prospect of a nuclear war between America and Russia : 'These are very scary times'

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/the-day-after-nicholas-meyer-america-russia-ukraine-nuclear-war-130354918.html

"These are very scary times," Meyer says on the phone from his home in California. "Looking at who's in charge now in Russia, Vladimir Putin's a very different-minded leader than Mikhail Gorbachev back in the day. And we've got a lot of young men with huge responsibilities on battlefields where the slightest miscalculation could lead to widespread devastation beyond what is only Ukraine. Things didn't get better after 1983."

[fcgamer | 4,723]

26 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Young? most likely. Innocent? certainly some, but then again how do "innocent" people do this?

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russia-bombs-fleeing-families-at-kramatorsk-train-station

Russian Troops Brag They Bombed Fleeing Families at Train Station

Propaganda. 

Life's not black and white bro, I'd reckon that the majority of young Russians don't want to be out there fighting and risking their lives.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

You mean taking out the young innocent solders that are drafted to fight, are sent off to fight without knowing what the fight is actually about, innocent kids that are getting shot up, their lives cut short too early and for what? I bet it's not a decision they actually can honestly make, it's really sad.

 

On 2/25/2022 at 6:46 AM, fcgamer said:

Let the people decide, the people living in the disputed areas.

Im glad Russia is getting destroyed. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

47 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

 

Im glad Russia is getting destroyed. 

Yeah, people like you only view the world in terms of black and white; then again, that's the problem with a lot of folks these days, they fail not to empathize and think, try to look at situations from all view points and angles. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

Yeah, people like you only view the world in terms of black and white; then again, that's the problem with a lot of folks these days, they fail not to empathize and think, try to look at situations from all view points and angles. 

People that rape and murder innocent civilians = bad. Is there a time when rape is good? Im confused  

Since we are talking about viewing things from all view points, from China’s point of view, Taiwan is their property. Japan turned it over to them after ww2. 
 

Chinese explorers first documented it thousands of years ago. All the settlers there originally migrated from China. 
 

They might have a good point. 

[avatar! | 1,809]

4 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Yeah, people like you only view the world in terms of black and white; then again, that's the problem with a lot of folks these days, they fail not to empathize and think, try to look at situations from all view points and angles. 

It's not that an individual soldier is viewed as black and white, it's the sides. During WWII many young Germans were killed. Were all of them "evil"? Of course not. Did some of them wish there was never a war? Certainly. Did most Nazi soldiers know what they were doing and had no problems committing atrocities? Absolutely. In fact, there's even a term to describe the myth that most Germans were "innocent" and it is called the myth of the clean Wehrmacht

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

Likewise, you seem to think that Russian soldiers are just young schoolboys not really knowing what's going on - which is incorrect. Again, certainly some of them think the whole war is stupid, but you can't explain all the atrocities they've committed against innocent civilian populations as "just a few bad apples". There's no empathizing with murderers like this.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

3 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

Since we are talking about viewing things from all view points, from China’s point of view, Taiwan is their property. Japan turned it over to them after ww2. 
 

Chinese explorers first documented it thousands of years ago. All the settlers there originally migrated from China. 

I think you should learn some history before you run your mouth.

Japan turned Taiwan over to Chiang Kai-shek's government at the end of World War 2, aka the Republic of China, aka the KMT, aka 中華民國. The government ruling mainland China has nothing to do with that, and has never ruled Taiwan or had control of it, period.

Regarding the settlers and explorers, you do realise that the island was initially settled by aboriginal people, that Portuguese explorers discovered and documented the place and gave it the name, that even the Dutch had settled here. Yes, "Chinese" people did settle here too, but it definitely wasn't a lot and in ancient times China just viewed Taiwan as a hangout for pirates and drifters, even forbidding their own people to settle there without permission. This China, once again, had nothing to do with the current Chinese government.

Finally, you mentioned Chinese people, well I'm a little lost which ethnicity you are talking about. Are you referring to the Han Chinese, Hakka, or?

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

It's not that an individual soldier is viewed as black and white, it's the sides. During WWII many young Germans were killed. Were all of them "evil"? Of course not. Did some of them wish there was never a war? Certainly. Did most Nazi soldiers know what they were doing and had no problems committing atrocities? Absolutely. In fact, there's even a term to describe the myth that most Germans were "innocent" and it is called the myth of the clean Wehrmacht

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

Likewise, you seem to think that Russian soldiers are just young schoolboys not really knowing what's going on - which is incorrect. Again, certainly some of them think the whole war is stupid, but you can't explain all the atrocities they've committed against innocent civilian populations as "just a few bad apples". There's no empathizing with murderers like this.

Corey stated he's is glad Russia (Russian people, i.e. soldiers I'm guessing) are getting destroyed. I don't wish death on anyone, and while I don't believe that what Russia is doing is right, and I want them to lose, I'm not one to cheer for death of anyone, especially when at the end of the day, there are a lot of inexperienced, innocent people dying.

I had seen a photograph about last year of some Chinese soldiers being sent of to the Indian border, iirc, when there was conflict. The amount of fear and horror on their faces was sickening, and despite the fact that some day these same folks might possibly be crossing the Taiwan strait and shooting up my area, I still didn't look at the pictures and think "I hope the Indians kill those fuckers". People that take such stances are very very disturbed individuals, as soon as they fail to see people as humans.

On a different, concluding note, the American military has also at times raped and murdered innocent women, children, elderly, etc. So we should conclude that all of the American military is evil, or that everyone that had served is evil? Is that what you guys are saying?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

33 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I think you should learn some history before you run your mouth.

Japan turned Taiwan over to Chiang Kai-shek's government at the end of World War 2, aka the Republic of China, aka the KMT, aka 中華民國. The government ruling mainland China has nothing to do with that, and has never ruled Taiwan or had control of it, period.

Regarding the settlers and explorers, you do realise that the island was initially settled by aboriginal people, that Portuguese explorers discovered and documented the place and gave it the name, that even the Dutch had settled here. Yes, "Chinese" people did settle here too, but it definitely wasn't a lot and in ancient times China just viewed Taiwan as a hangout for pirates and drifters, even forbidding their own people to settle there without permission. This China, once again, had nothing to do with the current Chinese government.

Finally, you mentioned Chinese people, well I'm a little lost which ethnicity you are talking about. Are you referring to the Han Chinese, Hakka, or?

Thats all propaganda.